NewbVetteGuy

So I started trying to learn about what's required to put a hydraulic roller cam in an L82 and it started spiraling out of control VERY quickly...


Does anyone have a good list of exactly what's required and recommended to do this and rough estimate on what the difference in cost is vs. just swapping out the stock L82 cam for a modern dual profile hydraulic flat tappet?

From what I could gather you need at least this:

• More expensive (hardened), roller cam appropriate camshaft
• Super expensive retrofit roller lifters- $500-$1,000 depending upon who you get them from (Howard on the lower end of the cost spectrum; CompCamps on the highest end, with Edelbrock and all the usual cam players in the middle)
• "Thrust bearing" / "button" on the front of the cam to prevent "cam walk" and the cam from pushing forward out of the block
• Hydraulic roller installation kit: includes "spider", lifter guides, cam retainer plate and fasteners (CompCam's via Summit is $117)
• A new timing cover (some thread mentioned a "Cloyes" timing cover)
• New timing chain (if you're using the stock timing chain which has plastic in it?!??)
• Stronger/ higher pressure springs
• May need newer, smaller push rods (can anyone confirm/deny for our L82's if this is the case?)
• You MAY also need a new distributor with hardened gears otherwise the hardened steel in the roller cams may quickly wear out non-hardened distributor gears

Is it just me or is this cost about 4x what it would cost to just get a hydraulic flat tappet cam?!?

-Yes, flat tappets require a break-in period and special break-in fluid and then special high zinc content expensive oil forever, and yes, they wear out faster than hydraulic roller cams. YES, you get more torque and hp across the whole, now widened curve with the retrofit roller cams, but WOW it seems like a huge price jump, particularly for our engines.



Thanks for any help; I'm just trying to get a full list of what it will take and compare a hydraulic flat tappet swap vs. a hydraulic roller cam swap for my L82...


The springs thing I'm specifically going to have to investigate more as the ATK Profiler heads I'm almost dead-set on right now come with stronger springs and large lift capability specifically to support roller cams, but from what I've read you should NOT use high pressure springs with flat tappet cams or you're more likely to wipe out the lobes (85lbs is what you get from the factory and 130 lbs is considered the max safe pressure hydraulic flat tappet?).

Adam

NewbVetteGuy

Another question: If I find a cheap set of hydraulic roller retrofit lifters (new in box, of course) on Craigslist from someone who started down this path and then abandoned it, do I need to match the lifters to the cam?

Example: If I find a set of Howard retrofit roller lifters can I use them with a CompCams cam? Or if I find a CompCams retrofit roller lifter set can I use them with say a Lunati roller cam?


Adam

Oldguard 7

It's pretty straight forward. A hydraulic flat tappet cam is the less expensive option. The cam manufacturers recommend you to use the same brand name components for warranty issues. With regards to high pressure springs, cam manufacturers can tell you the required spring pressure for a particular cam.

NewbVetteGuy

Well, someone had to state the obvious, I guess... I kinda knew which is more expensive. I'm trying to figure out HOW much more expensive and to make sure that I properly understand what's involved in doing a retrofit roller cam swap, if desired anyway. (I got a free 79 L82, so I'm happy to put a bunch of money in it, but I still need to prioritize.)

A warrantee on a cam? Really? There's no way that's a thing. When I wipe out a lobe, I just have to buy a new cam, right?


Adam

cv67

You pretty much summed it up, not as cheap as some would have ya thinking.
Getting a cam esp a FT warrantied good luck
If a cam wasnt (FT type) wild I might chance it for an occasional driver anything else would have to be roller. When a cam has to try to pretend to be a roller just get a roller and save the headache.

Dont need to match brands of lifters and cams with rollers just get the pushrod length right. Theres some cheap stuff out there that should be avoided. It hurts more up front paying for good stuff but doing it over and $$ two times is worse.

Oh dont forget seal$ too.

Ibanez540r

You will need the more expensive retrofit roller lifters to go into your existing motor. The spider / lifter guide setup is for a newer style block, so will not be necessary in your case. It is one or the other as far as style of roller lifters. Retro = link bar rollers, 1988 and up roller blocks can use the spider setup and lifters.

Regardless of flat tappet vs roller, valve springs SHOULD be changed with the cam to match specs.

I wouldn't worry about matching lifter to cam brand. Morel are a very popular and high quality lifter that many here run with all the cam manufacturers.

NewbVetteGuy

Thanks so much for this! I didn't understand the retrofit VS. spider / guide issue. Making the connection that the link bars == retrofit was useful though but now I'm realizing that it's not even that easy. (see future post below)

I also hadn't heard of Morel.

NewbVetteGuy

Ok, so maybe I'm starting to understand the retrofit roller cam thing; I thought "bars==retrofit" but as one example of the complexity, I browsed the Cranecams.com site and they have 3 different types of rollers that have bars; I'm pretty sure that only one of those is actually appropriate for retrofitting into my old GENI SBC L82, right?

Crane "Classic" Mechanical Roller Lifter: -I'm pretty sure that these don't work with our GEN1 SBCs despite having the bar:
http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/i...dard-oller.jpg

Crane "Ultra-Pro" Mechanical Roller Lifter: -I'm pretty sure that these don't work with our GEN1 SBCs despite having the bar either: http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/i...-ultra-pro.jpg


Crane Retrofit Hydraulic Rollers (These I think DO work with our GENI SBC L82s -I probably think that because they say so.)




Adam

Ibanez540r

Understand the mechanics of it. Lifters on a flat tappet cam actually spin in their bore while they ride on the cam lobe, a flat surface against a flat surface. Roller lifters on the other hand have a wheel. The wheel must be in line with the lobe of the cam, if it was sideways it would no longer roll. The link bar is to keep the wheels of the lifters inline with the cam.

An OE roller cam motor used the spider contraption with some plates to keep the lifters in place.

So retrofits are link bar. But where it may get confusing looking at all the offerings is the stock spider setup has its limits so performance builds will still use a link bar type lifter as there capabilities are greater. Wheel sizes and bore diameter vary the higher quality and more extreme the lifters get. It can get detailed and confusing if you let it, find your cam and the manufacturer will likely have a recommended lifter.

Ibanez540r

...the big appearance difference in the lifters you posted are mechanical vs hydraulic roller. Stick to the hydraulic for your street car.

ddawson

Morel lifters, provided by Straub technologies. He provided everything for the conversion.

NewbVetteGuy

Ok, now I've gone on a crazy research adventure (benefit of ADHD: HYPERFOCUS!); I've looked at the retrofit hydraulic roller lifters from CompCams, Howards, Morel, Crane, Crower, Lunati, Edelbrock, Jegs, and GenericAssChinese Direct Import Ebay Special.

-I couldn't make any sense of the Isky website to even find their offering if they have one; by some insane luck I THINK I found Morel part #5372 (equally awful website).

The prices vary HUGELY. From the high $700s for Crane and Crower, through Edelbrock and then ComCams at mid to upper $400s, then Morel and Jegs at the $400-ish range (although I fear the Jegs is more Chinese crap), then Howards & Lunati around mid $350 and then Generic Chinese Ebay Crap for $180!

I was surprised at how competitive the CompCams offering was especially give that their retrofit lifters only weight 136grams vs most / all? of the below $400 options weighing around 310 grams. A lot of the cheaper options didn't list weight and I'm guessing that that was because they were hefty at around that 310 grams.


Some of them claimed some unique and patented features like allowing air to escape to prevent "pump up" (whatever that is); the Chinese knock-off obviously didn't care about patent law so they copied that feature, too.


What starts to separate the "meh" ones from the better ones? Is it just weight?


The most tempting options right now are certainly the Lunati @ $355 but I'd like to know it's not Chinese steel, the Jegs @ $389.99 (ability to easily return it if I screw up and order the wrong thing; but still concerned about Chinese stuff), the CompCams given the ridiculiously light weight vs the rest, and of course the Ebay Chinese Special because honestly it's $179.99 and I didn't think there was ANY WAY I'd be able to get retrofit rollers for anywhere near that price.


Adam

NewbVetteGuy

I'll paste the raw data from my OneNote although I know a lot of it will be stripped when I go to paste it; just incase anyone finds it valuable to have it all in one place:

• CompCams
○ $474.42 for 16 $399.80 on Ebay
○ 853-16 diameter 0.842", weight 136g, Seat Ht 2.47"
○ Precision fit for lowest leakdown rate, piston allows air to escape, axels made from 52100 heat-treated steel, lightweight body design


From <http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&P roduct_Code=853-16&Category_Code=GENVILifters>
• Howards
○ $383.98 w free shipping @ Amazon for 16; $359.97 @ Summit; $334 on ebay
○ (less confidence this is the right one says Chevy 265-400) Retro-fit Street
○ Tall lifters, I guess; carbonitride and tempered for hardness; heat treated cross bars- up to 6500 RPM
○ SKU: 91164N diameter 0.842", weight 309g


From <http://howardscams.com/c-1268627-lifters-accessories.html>

• Morel
○ $419.61 for 16 $412 PerfParts
○ Really confusing catalog- do I need "Morel Street Series"? -tons of racing stuff
○ Says for use with mild to moderate lobe profiles up to 0.370 lobe lift only
○ Go through "hydraulic roller lifters SBC 5372
○ 5372, 0.842" diameter, 0.700 roller
○ Considered very basic and for milder street stuff only
○ 140# seat & 375# open load maximum
• Crane
○ $784.97 for 16;
○ 0.842" diameter
○ 8620 billet steel bodies, heat-treated steel alignment bars, Monel steel pins and retaining flanges. Precision-fit plunger assemblies which provide increased RPM potential. (11532-16)
○ Special length pushrods are required (11628-16)

• Crower
○ 66310LM-16 $726.10
• Lunati
○ 72330-16 SBC $355.99 on Ebay; $375.69
○ Diameter 0.842", Seat Height 2.73" -huge; 310grams
○ 6200-6500 RPM
• Isky supposedly $625 new- can't find theirs
• Edelbrock
○ 97423 0.842" diameter $661
• Jegs
○ $389.99 for 16
○ Jegs says use 7.100 intake pushrod and 7.100 exhaust pushrod for 57-87 262-400 Chevy
• Generic-*** chinese- via ebay Crankshaft Depot
○ Ebay 8 pair (16) for $179.99
○ 220 PSI max spring seat pressure; 600 PSI spring open pressure
○ Upto 6000RPM
○ 8620 chrome moly; 9310 steel wheel (0.750"); working length 2.5" seat height
○ 0.842" OD; anti pump up



Adam

augiedoggy

I dont know how much research youve dont on this but I'll throw out what Ive learned so far (Or believe to be true) on the subject.

The difference in performance between a roller and modern profile hyd cam are not as big as they used to be. Years ago the profiles were much different giving the roller a large advantage but I believe for a street engine the main advantage now of a roller over the newer aggressive profile cams like the lunati voodoo is the fact that you dont have to run a ZDDP additive... For myself I would have to drive my car for like 100years for the retro roller setup to pay off.. I compared the roller cams like the ones made by howards along with the non roller cam I ended up going with (voodoo 262/268) cam in my dyno software with my combo and those huge gains people here keep mentioning just werent there.

And as far as reliability advantages? I think thats null as well since Ive seen more than a few people here who have them complain a failure... There is a recent thread with pics of a retro roller setup where the arm came off and the lifter turned and damaged the cam.. simply put theres more moving parts that can fail.

I also wonder why the retro roller setups are recommended a lot here but not on other chevy and hot rod forums so much?

427Hotrod

At this stage...a quick call to Chris Straub at Straub Technologies would save you a lot of hassle. He'll take the time to walk you though all of it. He is actually a supplier to many of the big name cam folks for lifters and valvetrain parts and knows what all of them are selling.

As you've discovered, there's a lot of choices, but you've got the basics down pretty well. The Morel brand lifters are some of the best. They are sold by some of the big guys under their own names. Crane also makes great ones. There are various hyd roller lifters even among a certain brand. Typically for the "normal" hot street stuff like you're doing, the serious hard core street guys and then the race guys who have limited travel HR lifters that are required in some race classes. They act basically like a SR lifter and are not what you need. You also want to understand things like noise, because often the more aggressive the cam...even a HR can get a little noisy at idle. Sounds like a SR almost...sometimes worse in fact.

When going to this much trouble, you'll want to ensure valvetrain geometry is correct and that often means new pushrods and will also change if you go to roller rockers..which isn't a bad idea either if going to all this work.

You can use a basic cam thrust button with a stock timing cover unless you want to get fancy.

If you use the Austempered type cast core, which is what most HR cams are made from, you can usually use a stock dist. gear. Certainly going up to a billet core is good if it's a "good" steel one to help longevity, but usually not needed with the type of lobes HR cams use. If you do use a billet one, I always add the "everwear" gear to the cam and then I can use whatever gear on dist. I want. Much easier and usually cheaper to me.

You'll want to change timing chain anyway. The factory ones are plastic on cam gear. But you don't need a high dollar one. A good basic Cloyes will do fine.

So all of this just depends on how far you're going. Since you're doing heads it sounds like you're pretty committed to power...

Again, Chris can be a "one stop" shopping place and even if you don't buy from him, he'll educate you and give you all the options and tell you what it means.


JIM

NewbVetteGuy

On the perf side, the benefit is getting to peak HP and torque sooner and staying there longer; a fattened up torque curve, right? I've seen the graphic below used to illustrate this before.




I've also heard it said that the rollers in roller cams are the ultimate oil filter- if you've got any particulates in your oil, it's going to end up in the roller and it's going to get screwed up. With the huge variance in price, I'm sure comes huge variance in quality, too. ($120-$850 is a pretty big price range.) -so failure rate is based upon proper installation, lifter quality, and oil filtration efficiency, no?


What I've gathered from a few places so far, but mostly from the thread below from Grumpys Performance is that the new high-lift, high performace flat tappet cams are actually where you're at the most risk for wiping out a lobe.

My understanding is that as we got better and better flowing heads over time the flat tappet crowd saw a need to offer higher lift and faster ramps ala roller cams and did just that, but they're dramatically increasing the risk of damage.

The rule of thumb from the Grumpys thread, which is supposedly quoting Isky, says that there's a safe ratio between flat tappet cam duration at 0.50 and total valve lift; the rule is that, for 1.5 ratio SBCs, the duration @ 0.50 must exceed 47.5% of the total valve lift or you're going to cause wear / longevity issues.


The old school HE and Magnum cams were fine here but the XE series and I'm sure many of the Lunati Voodoo and other flat tappets that have a more roller-like profile are voilating the rules and are asking for trouble. (I'm going to pick a few cams I've been looking at and see which pass vs. violate the 47.5% rule -I'm guessing/hoping that the newest EFI designs are back in the safe zone, but we'll see.)


Right now my understanding is that the newest generation of heads can really use the higher lift and a "more meaty" hp / torque curve is going to keep the engine in the sweet spot longer - the fast ramp, higher lift profiles are asking for longevity issues in flat tappet cams when they violate the 47.5% rule and a high-quality hydraulic roller lifter is going to live longer here.


Seemingly random aside but vaguely related: One nagging fear in the back of my mind is that I might be asking for detonation issues with profiler heads on my L82; I believe that puts me at 10.2:1 with ideal quench with alunimum heads, which SHOULD be ok, but I think the less radical CAMs that I'm looking at (maximize torque with increased efficiency and EFI compatibility) actually increases /maximizes pressure. The Grumpys thread also seems to imply that because of the faster ramp on hyd roller cams, you can have a seemingly higher CR than you would otherwise have... -The combination I'm looking at gives me a bit of concern. Especially when I use the electronic timing advance feature on my EFI+ignition control to advance timing all the way up for a "performance mode" configuration. (Maybe I should call it "knock mode"/ "gas octane testing mode"...)

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...t-design.3802/


Adam

P.S. Any statements I've made should be read as assumptions with implied questions behind them.

NewbVetteGuy

My real question around the cheap Morel's is not whether in general Morel is a good brand name or whether they offer some of the best lifters, but whether their lowest-end and cheapest lifters are actually good quality / value. They specifically call out that they designed the cheapies to try and be more competitive with the Chinese imported stuff, so with cost being called out as their primary goal, I start to wonder about whether these have the same quality or are going to cause issues down the line.

If they're designed to be a replacement for the Chinese ones costing 1/3 less then what are you getting for the 3x increase in price other than "'Merican Made"?


Adam

Ibanez540r

From my understanding, the "Cheap Morels" are still well ahead in quality as compared to the average comps, howards, etc. Like 427Hotrod stated, Morel are often rebranded. I know once you step up in the Howards line they are Morels, there are others as well.


By the way I sent you a private message.

NewbVetteGuy

Jim, I truly appreciate all the gems of wisdom in your whole response; tons of pieces of information I was missing there.

For what it's worth, I'm more committed to modernization, reduced maintenance, and increased reliability than pure power for power's sake.

I was given the family 79 L82 with 14.9k miles and the old girl is approaching it's 40 year birthday (and my 40th birthday will be one year behind the car's so I can get away with splurging a little bit if the budget slips). I'm an IT guy working in the tech industry and I'd really like to see the car get some of the best modern technology improvements that I can with a budget that's roughly equal to the value of the car today. (I figure I've got a free car and even if all the improvements I make don't increase the value a dime, at least I can sell it and "break even" at the end of the day- that helps sell the idea to my wife, anyway.)

I want to see improved power, improved fuel economy, reduced weight, improved handling and steering, and of course modern high tech conveniences, but it's important to me to try and ensure that the car makes it another 40 years.

I'm trying to not completely transform the character of the car- I still want to pay homage to it being a 79 Vette so I'm trying to understand the sea of options and then weigh the pros and cons to try and figure out what makes the most sense given my budget and goals. -I also find incredible joy in just learning about the thing and running all the way down one logic path until it dead-ends and then walking back up it. (Growing up I used to read those "choose your own adventure stories" and I'd have to dog-ear pages so that I could read it through every permutation to figure out the "Best" one.)


Tearing down the engine this far to remove the cam is something I only want to have done one time; EVER. Whatever cam and lifters go in this thing, I want it to be the one and only time for another 40 years, so reliability is very important.

My best guess is that a modern hydraulic flat tappet that leaves plenty of "safety" in Isky's 47.5% rule is probably going to be the direction that I go for value reasons, but I want to play this hydraulic roller thing all the way out to make a fully-informed decision. I'm looking at the CompCams XE256H or Lunati Voodoo 256/262 if hydraulic flat tappet and CompCams 260XFI HR13 if I go with a hydraulic retrofit roller. -I need to run the numbers on Isky's 47.5% rule with the two hydraulic flat tappet options later this week when I'm not being crushed at work.


Adam

NewbVetteGuy

Wow, I'm a sucker for good value / a great deal, so you're selling me on the Morels, for sure!

Adam