Intermittent no start problem
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
Intermittent no start problem
I went to a car show yesterday. My car wouldn't start when I got ready to leave. Nothing at all when I turn the key. I got a jump and it started right up. Then it died at an intersection on the way home. I had to get another jump to start the car. I got home and turned it off. It started with no problem. So this can happen when the engine is hot or cold.
I have an Optima yellow top battery which is only about a year old. I keep it hooked up to an Optima charger when not driving the car. It always shows that the battery has at least 13 volts when charging. My ammeter gauge shows a charging condition (13) when the car is running. So I believe the battery and alternator are good. I'm using a Powermaster mini starter that has been working flawlessly.
The car is an '81 automatic. The starter interrupt relay has been bypassed and a toggle switch is used as an anti theft device.
I can build motors etc. but electrical troubleshooting I suck at. Give me some ideas on things to check please. TIA.
I have an Optima yellow top battery which is only about a year old. I keep it hooked up to an Optima charger when not driving the car. It always shows that the battery has at least 13 volts when charging. My ammeter gauge shows a charging condition (13) when the car is running. So I believe the battery and alternator are good. I'm using a Powermaster mini starter that has been working flawlessly.
The car is an '81 automatic. The starter interrupt relay has been bypassed and a toggle switch is used as an anti theft device.
I can build motors etc. but electrical troubleshooting I suck at. Give me some ideas on things to check please. TIA.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 166
Likes: 9
From: Baytown TX
I'd check starter wiring. I had my wire on my solenoid loose and it would do the same thing. When you turn the key on does the car get power, like the radio turns on, just won't crank? May need another person but check voltage when the key is in the start position and run position on the starter. I had a bad neutral connection before and it would turn everything on but not enough neutral to start the car. A continuity tester helps with that.
Last edited by GTOMike06; Sep 5, 2016 at 02:03 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
I'd check starter wiring. I had my wire on my solenoid loose and it would do the same thing. When you turn the key on does the car get power, like the radio turns on, just won't crank? May need another person but check voltage when the key is in the start position and run position on the starter. I had a bad neutral connection before and it would turn everything on but not enough neutral to start the car. A continuity tester helps with that.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 166
Likes: 9
From: Baytown TX
I can't remember what color the wire is but the crimped on eye was loose and I could jiggle it and it would work. I would check voltage on the starter solenoid and have someone crank the motor over and make sure it's getting 12v if there is no voltage there's something wrong in the wiring. If its good voltage id take the starter off and get it tested or try and jumper 12v to the solenoid and see if it cranks.
The bad neutral I had was the negative battery cable wasn't making a good connection to the frame. When I turned the key on I had good voltage to everything but it wasn't making a good enough connection to carry the amps of the starter. With the wire hooked up to the starter solenoid it would go to 0v when I tried to crank it but when I unhooked the wire from the solenoid and cranked it would stay 12v on the wire. I checked continuity from the frame to the negative battery terminal and had nothing so I cleaned up the terminals and the connection from the battery cable to the frame and it fixed it.
I find it easier to find intermittent electrical gremlins with 2 people where they can hold the key on and I can wiggle wires.
The bad neutral I had was the negative battery cable wasn't making a good connection to the frame. When I turned the key on I had good voltage to everything but it wasn't making a good enough connection to carry the amps of the starter. With the wire hooked up to the starter solenoid it would go to 0v when I tried to crank it but when I unhooked the wire from the solenoid and cranked it would stay 12v on the wire. I checked continuity from the frame to the negative battery terminal and had nothing so I cleaned up the terminals and the connection from the battery cable to the frame and it fixed it.
I find it easier to find intermittent electrical gremlins with 2 people where they can hold the key on and I can wiggle wires.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
I got to look at the starter this morning.
All the connections were very secure at the starter and my engine ground to chassis cable.
I didn't have anyone to turn the key on so I didn't get to check the cranking voltage.
I did cover my header with heat wrap in the vicinity of the starter. The wires at the starter are pretty close to the heat of the headers.
More when I get some help. Ideas welcomed.
All the connections were very secure at the starter and my engine ground to chassis cable.
I didn't have anyone to turn the key on so I didn't get to check the cranking voltage.
I did cover my header with heat wrap in the vicinity of the starter. The wires at the starter are pretty close to the heat of the headers.
More when I get some help. Ideas welcomed.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,057
Likes: 420
From: BC
Since your grounds and positive connection to the starter have checked out OK I wonder if there is a loose or broken connection inside the starter solenoid itself. You said you lost electrical power at an intersection as well as when trying to start it so there is a break somewhere. Something inside the solenoid would be my bet as the starter itself works when you have power to it.
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Drifting
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 40
From: Plano TX
Typically on older starters the solenoid requires more current to pull it in fully and they are much worse when hot. Once you have checked and cleaned all connections and the problem comes back you can provide this by connecting an extra wire to the start terminal on the solenoid and make it long enough to touch the battery terminal on the alternator. If it starts right up then the ignition switch can't supply enough current through it's old and dirty contacts.
On any vette I have that uses the original type starter, I mount a relay on the firewall so the ignition start wire energizes the relay. I run the start terminal on the solenoid to one side of the relay and the other to the battery connection on the starter. This maximizes the current to energize the solenoid.
On any vette I have that uses the original type starter, I mount a relay on the firewall so the ignition start wire energizes the relay. I run the start terminal on the solenoid to one side of the relay and the other to the battery connection on the starter. This maximizes the current to energize the solenoid.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
Still Baffled
I was going to do another electrical mod so I went ahead and did it today. I ran a 0/1 cable from the alternator to the starter connection. I disconnected the factory positive battery cable at the starter and the battery. I had already ran an 0/1 cable from the alternator to the battery at an earlier date.
So in essence I bypassed the factory battery cable. I thought that it was possible that the positive cable may have had some type of an issue causing the intermittent start. When I went to start the car it just clicked very briefly. Then it turned over like there was no problem and started.
WTH
So in essence I bypassed the factory battery cable. I thought that it was possible that the positive cable may have had some type of an issue causing the intermittent start. When I went to start the car it just clicked very briefly. Then it turned over like there was no problem and started.
WTH
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 50
From: Laguna Niguel California
I will echo Dave. The solenoids are problematic. Don't buy a cheap rebuilt starter and solenoid. A new heavy duty, quality solenoid may solve your problem. I've been down this road.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
I have a Powermaster mini starter that has been working flawlessly. Do you guys think it has a solenoid issue?
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,112
From: Crossville TN
Do you have a large 4 awg ground wire running from the right-side frame (near A-arm) to the right engine motor mount (and front starter bracket)? If not, that's your problem. It could also be bad wire (inside the insulation), bad/corroded connection, or it could still be a bad battery. Measuring voltage on a battery will tell you almost nothing about its condition. It needs to be tested under load to see how quickly it will discharge with a known load. If you got a jump and it started, it's likely the battery...or you have a battery drain somewhere in the system that is depleting the battery while sitting.
Last edited by 7T1vette; Sep 7, 2016 at 05:02 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
Originally Posted by 7T1vette
Do you have a large 4 awg ground wire running from the right-side frame (near A-arm) to the right engine motor mount (and front starter bracket)? If not, that's your problem. It could also be bad wire (inside the insulation), bad/corroded connection, or it could still be a bad battery. Measuring voltage on a battery will tell you almost nothing about its condition. It needs to be tested under load to see how quickly it will discharge with a known load. If you got a jump and it started, it's likely the battery...or you have a battery drain somewhere in the system that is depleting the battery while sitting.
I'm leaning more towards a drain when the car sits. Now to try to find the culprit.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,112
From: Crossville TN
If the starter case is not grounded, then all that current is flowing through the engine block, into the bell housing, then into the starter case. The grounding really needs to be direct to the case. I'm surprised that the instructions that came with that starter didn't state that requirement.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
If the starter case is not grounded, then all that current is flowing through the engine block, into the bell housing, then into the starter case. The grounding really needs to be direct to the case. I'm surprised that the instructions that came with that starter didn't state that requirement.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,339
Likes: 546
From: Central Texas
Ok I got the ground wire fabricated and connected. The car SEEMS to start quicker. I'm going to leave the battery off of the trickle charger for a day or so and see if the car starts then. The car probably has a parasitic drain if it doesn't start.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,142
Likes: 54
From: Taylor Michigan
Your parts are good except the damn mini ....clean the battery cables expecially the ground f.rom the battery to the frame.......you may be using the shifter cable as the ground. Check for a white power on the end of the trqas shifter cable,,,,,,,,,,,
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,753
Likes: 119
From: Springfield Missouri
take the starter off, take rhe solenoid off, make sure to see where the wires go on the starteror else you will cause more trouble. Take the solenoid apart, clean everything up inside, amking sure the copper surfaces are clean, sometimes that is the problem. check the brushes, replace them, they are cheap. make sure the armature is clean where the brushes run on. put a little grease in the nose piece and on the other end, making sure the bushings are not worn out. This called a starter overhaul, costs very little unless the field or amarture are bad. you can get junk starters for parts a lot of the time, many starters are replaced that are good, and still don't fix the problem. check all connections on the starter to be tight, and also the battery cables are clean, especially if they are side mounts.