Everyone seems to have their own definition of what an original engine is. How many changes do you have to make to an engine until it's not considered original.

Here are some definitions I have seen on the forum:
1. An engine with numbers matching block and heads.
2. An engine never opened up
3. An engine that looks original on the outside.
4. An engine that was rebuild but used all the original parts or "similar"---whatever that means.

You see the confusion. The definition is in the eye of the beholder.

NCRS would say if all numbers, bolts, exterior parts are correct it is original--at least for judging

Is the motor original if you have it bored; have the pistons replaced; had the crank journals ground from 2.1 to 2.0, how about a new cam and/or lifters, how about a new crank, new oil pump, new push rods. How about different compression (was originally 9:1 and is now 9.5:1); headers; on and on.

Why would someone rebuild an engine and reuse 50 year old parts when the newer cranks, rockers, push rods, pistons etc are now made with better 4340 forged steel and have a better design. Engineering and metals have changed a lot in the last 50 years.

I know I'm opening a can of worms here but that's one of the great things about the forum. How many of us can afford to buy all original NOS parts? I would like to heard our opinion.

 

Think its an illness?

 

Being a member of the other NCRS (Not Correctly Restored Society) I say if the heads and block are numbers matching, then it IS numbers matching. Even if rebuilt with new internals, so you can have a fun car to actually drive, and not be a museum piece..

 

If I wanted a museum piece I would have bought a museum, not a Corvette. If it's not driveable and somewhat reliable it's of no use to me.

 

Its the block, end of story. There may be people who make up all sorts of definitions, but theres no VIN on anything but the block. Everything else on the engine can be replaced with correct numbered and dated parts without faking anything.

 

Because museum.

I much prefer to drive a car, than to check date codes, or compare bolts and what not.


I'm going to join that club asap.

 

Two definitions:

1) The actual engine that left the factory in that car. (this is the only definition that matters to me, btw)

2) The engine "appears" to be the same as what would have come in the car, down to all the casting I.D. features and the engine stamp pad data. (but it could be a build up of correct P/N, dated, and stamped pieces that are assembled to "resemble" the original engine. (this is all that matters to NCRS)

Conundrum: BOTH of the engine above are "Numbers Matching"; but only ONE of them is REAL!

 

Yes, this has always been my understanding!.....The block, vin numbers and date code.

When I rebuilt my L-82 in 2014 I was curious as to the "numbers matching" possibility of my L-82. Thank Fully, the block numbers matched the correct 4 speed numbers which matched the VIN, especially since my L-82 had been apart prior to May 1983 when I bought (which I did not know until the rebuild but suspected) it with 25,000 miles on the car.

The goal of the rebuild was to retain as much L-82 as was feasible and prudent (car/engine only had 65,000 miles on it) but to bring the HP up to modern standards...the stock internals L-82 made 233 RWHP in 2013 which is quite a bit more than the 220 NET HP in 1978. I did up the compression from 8.9:1 to 10.2:1, roller cam instead of the flat tappet L-82 cam with MUCH more lift, and AFR aluminum heads but chose to retain the low mileage forged L-82 crankshaft (reconditioned), L-82 forged rods (reconditioned), aluminum L-82 intake (ported and cleaned up), and the L-82 cold air intake assembly...it looks pretty much like an L-82 but would blow the doors off any small block C3 engine (LT-1)....power is in the 425-450 Gross HP and certainly enough to not being embarrassed but modern cars except very high performance machinery.

Just me and my goals...not for everyone but my mission was accomplished. If the block was junk and I needed a new crank, only then would I have gone the 383 route...not necessary with a good block, crank and rods......

 

No sense losing sleep over it. Use your own definition.

 

ONE. Technically speaking, everything manufactured is "original" only once. The second anything is changed, altered or has had a component replaced, it is technically no longer original.

People can and do argue the point of originality philosophically all day long based on "feelings", "thoughts" and "opinions", etc... and that's fine, but remember, the key word in the OP's question (as highlighted above) is original.

Remember, the question didn't ask when is an engine considered to no longer be "numbers matching"... it was original, and the answer to that specific question is: one.

 

NCRS officials are frantically barricading themselves into a boardroom to contemplate how you've single-handedly ruined everything they've done to brainwash millions of numbers matching collectors....

 

General stated if the engine block stamp # matches the VIN on the body, and frame VIN#.
it is considered a matching numbers car.
Yes they do stamp other assemblies like transmission and rear end.
Usually only corvette purists, such as NCRS. care about or look for these numbers.

be aware, unfortunately some have started to re-stamp blocks, to deceive people/buyers.
some feel this practice is ok. I think it is Forgery, and theft.

 

Nothing frantic involved. The NCRS has its own criteria which has been used for years, is published, and can be followed by anyone choosing to do so.

 

Refer to Post #7....

 

My car's truck engine has a numbers matching fuel pump for a different year of Vette! Close enough?

Anyway, I'd only consider true numbers matching to be when everything is identical to stock. The whole intent is to create a car identical to how it rolled off the factory floor

Not to devalue people's internal modernizations (I actually would way prefer those over original stuff), but I also think there should be special consideration when everything on and in the car is identical to factory

I also believe there's different levels of numbers matching, of course. Such as a matching block

 

I'm glad I don't care about numbers matching. But if I had an older 'Vette...

 

A purist wont look at a car that doesnt have an original belt its nuts
Very small percentage are like that the rest of the world does not care one bit. So dont base your buy on that

Agree with the forgery bit. Unless you really know your stuff dont pay for #s chances are its not.

When I sold my 73 being 100% stock/numbers meant absoutely nothing come sale time. Few purists called just wanted to nitpick it to get it for free (hoping I didnt know it was a corvette) complete waste of time

People like nice fresh stuff at the end of the day save for that 1 percent ncrs crowd or a newbie that believes it has to be #s or its worthless.

dont lose sleep over it enjoy the hobby

 

Join MY club

 

As this is a public forum, I shall now offer my opinion.

Ive never understood numbers matching anything. All 'numbers matching' means to me is that the items was NEVER fully enjoyed. You cant honestly expect a 40 year old car to have had NO major repairs or replacement parts. You find me a true NCRS car and Ill show you a trailer queen thats never seen its own redline or roasted its tires until they smoke. Ya know...the way a Corvette is designed to be owned.

I also collect firearms. Ive seen guys go NUTS and BROKE on trying to make their 1941 M1 Garand exactly as it was the day it left the factory. WHY? All the extra parts, mismatched wood and various makers attest to its history. Hell, I owned a MG34 that had original **** proofs, Russian capture marks and Israeli property markings. Thats WAY more interesting than a relic that sat in a museum for 80 years.

I guess we all have hobbies. To each his own.

 

To me.. and being NCRS member 224... The only original engine is the original engine and you only have it one time. My first thought on your post "When Does an Original Engine become Not Original?" was when the rod pass's through the side of the block...

To me no matter what camshaft you have, what heads you have (you can always find matching heads), no matter what else is not right you still have the original block (unless the little man comes knocking).

I own a 70 LT-1 Convertible.. and yes I do have the original block... It's trashed to where it can not be repaired (because some bonehead left it sit on the ground for 15 years)... but I still keep the block and it will be with the car. There is nothing I can do aside from seeking a re-stamped block to make it "as original".. but to me there no substitute for the original block... it was only original once..

IMHO,
Willcox