Pro-filers are pretty much the best bang for the buck. They flow NEARLY as well as AFR heads (widely considered the best off-the-shelf heads available) for way less money and are very high quality. 185/64 will be fine. Those heads paired with a good cam and intake will wake that engine up. That's essentially what I did (using Brodix heads) on a stock bottom end. It made a HUGE difference! no more getting beat off the lights by a modern sedan or ricer haha.

 

So I'm looking at part numbers 176-18P-04-92 or 176-18P-14-92 on the Pro-filer heads, the difference being 2.02 or 2.05 intake. Are these the right ones, and if so, which is the better intake diameter to go with?

 

Yes, it looks like the 14-92 model # is their typical 185cc /64cc Profiler head with the 2.02 intake valve.


I'm not an expert here, so I'd look to one of the experienced engine builders like CuisinArtVette here to chime in, but I've heard before that 2.02" intake valves are really the right max size on a 4.000-4.030" bore SBC. I think the larger intake valve sizes only see real benefit on large bore motors like the 400 blocks 4.1" bore. Most of the extra intake valve is going to be shrouded so you won't flow much more air with a larger intake valve, but you WILL give up velocity / torque. (This is me regurgitating what I've heard others state.)

Now that head is on Summit for $631.86 per head, but was on Jegs recently for $559.99 (the 185cc version is now mysteriously missing on Jegs.com).


One decision point is what size intake port to get, which is based upon whether you want your power and at what RPM and displacement you want to stop making power at. (There's also a 195cc version of that head available.) http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...14022/10002/-1


The 195cc head has a little bit more air flow and will support spinning up to more RPMs; also remember that if in the future you do end up needing to rebuild the bottom-end and you heed the wisdom to just make it a 383 stroker when you do, the RPM at which the smaller port head will stop flowing / go turbulent is going to go down.
A smaller port will often make more low-end torque but stop producing power sooner than a larger port, BUT the effect has been largely exaggerated-- your cam will control where you make power more than the size of the head's intake port, ESPECIALLY with these heads as they have very small cross-sectional areas for their intake port size- that means that they're going to have huge air velocity and make a lot of torque either way. If you're never going to spin it up past 6,000 RPM, though then the extra airflow capacity of the 195cc is probably wasted and you might want the tiny increase in torque form going with the 185cc version.


The last thing you need to think about before buying the heads is what type of cam you're going to go with. (hydraulic flat tappet or spring for retro hydraulic roller?) -You will want to order the head with springs appropriate for your cam. The roller cam springs will probably not be appropriate for a ft and vice-versa. (Make a determination on FT vs. Roller and look at an example cam that's probably "close enough" and then look at the open and closed pressure spring recommendations from the cam MFGR and just make sure that the springs in the assembled heads are in that range.) -I don't know enough about spring selection to provide any more detailed advice than that.


The Jegs site, anyway offers two different versions of the 195cc; one with springs appropriate for a FT; one for a roller cam: http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS-Performan...93012/10002/-1


Adam

 

What about this 180cc version?

$539.99ea http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...14002/10002/-1

$1277.91 for a 'kit' http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...4002K/10002/-1

 

They don't make a 180cc version so that's not a Profiler head.


Adam

 

I'm not going muddy up this thread but maybe Jegs has requested a specific CC or perhaps Profiler doesn't want a direct competitor? IDK...only speculation on my part.

Keep in mind that Jegs doesn't sell Profiler branded heads. There seems to be an understanding or perhaps an acknowledgement by Jegs that Profiles makes their heads.

Working off of that.....

Jegs uses the identical description for all of their SBC heads
Jegs offers 3 SBC heads, 180's and 2 different 195cc heads
All 3 use the same A356-A T6 casting

Now here's my leap...If they all use the same casting then all are Profiler cast or none are.

Regardless....the Jegs 'house brand' heads have very impressive specs for the price.

 

That's definitely muddying it.

Profiler makes and sells a 185cc, 195cc, and 210cc SBC 23 degree head. They sell it though a couple other venues, rebranded- the name cut into the end of the head is the last thing that happens on the CNC; easily changeable.

The Jegs site used to have the full airflow posted for the 185cc and 195cc version- at every lift the airflow on the intake and exhaust are identical.

The only way this type of rebranding deal works is to just allow the brand on the end of the head to be renamed and they sell a huge volume, although at lower profit. Before Profiler had Jegs branded heads, World did, Dart castings were branded Jegs for a while, too. The idea that "they all have to be Profiler, or none of them are Profiler" is an artificial and non-logical construct.

Having said that, the 0.600" valve lift intake and particularly the exhaust flow is really good on the 180cc head.... actually the exhaust flow is identical to the Profiler head at 0.600"... So I guess it's possible. Profiler also makes a slightly different, custom casting for ATK Engines.

Personally, one of the huge benefits of the Profiler castings is that the ports were designed by Darin Morgan and have phenomenal velocities and torque and chancing my head purchase hoping that the 180cc version is a special casting made exclusively for Jegs is just too much of a gamble. The 185cc and 195cc versions are well known.


Adam

 

I hate being wrong, but after looking at it more, I think Jim2527 is probably right.

Jegs dropped the 185cc head and how the 180cc head under identical descriptions replaced it. 7 CFM less @ 0.600" lift, so only 14 hp potential less; not sure what the min CSA is on these but it's good to have another option...

Adam

 

Going back to the OP's ask..the goal is 300-350 GROSS HP for about $2,500. As stated in Post #38, this is relatively easy assuming the bottom is good.

Cylinder heads are much like high performance tires, you generally get what you pay for...there is no holy grail, just some options that may be a better value than others. Iron Vortec heads for $600 are not as good as the $800 Summit/Jegs aluminum which are not as good as the $1,100 Profiler which are not as good as the $1,600 AFR's BUT anyone of these heads will get to the target 300-350 GROSS HP easily with the appropriate cam.

Just as an aside, the big advantage the AFRs have over other heads is NOT just the peak flow numbers but the outstanding mid lift (.2,.3.,.4 lift) flow numbers that are superior to other heads. This why the heads run so strong on engines even with modest duration camshafts and why I use them on my L-82 355 with modest duration exhaust of 225.

But I digress...the OP does not need AFR's, Dart, TrickFlow etc to hit 300-350 Gross HP.

 

Cant go wrong with post 38!!

At least the OP's budget matches his HP goal!! When's the last time that happened?

 

 

If nothing else, I try to be realistic.

 

Agreed, but there's two ways to do this: 1. Get to your hp goal (300-350HP gross) in the cheapest way possible. 2. Get the best engine you can get for your budget


Yes, and no.
The Jegs Profiler heads are Profiler heads castings (the 195cc head is an identical casting with near identical hardware), but for less. The name stamped on the end gets you nothing other than the name stamped on the end.

The AFR heads USED to be quite a bit in a league of their own; but the other top-tier brands have caught them in mid-lift flow:

AFR 180cc Flow#s:
.200 .300 .400 .500
Int 138 198 240 260
Exh 110 158 190 207

Profiler 185cc Flow#s:
.200 .300 .400 .500
Int 135 201 245 265
Exh 110 145 180 206

The Profiler heads best the AFR heads at mid lift flow; where the the AFRs still reign supreme, is in exhaust flow. A single pattern cam is usually right with AFR heads. AFR heads are CNCed; but casting is cheaper. AFR assembled heads do come with pretty premium hardware, but if you're not spinning beyond 6,000RPM does it do you any good?

The AFR brand IS a status symbol, and honestly might actually be worth something if you go to sell your car, but with a price difference of $500-$600 to a comparable Jegs-branded Profiler head, is it worth the difference? I'm not sure.

I totally agree that you want the airflow at the lift where your valves will spend the majority of their time, but more important than that is VELOCITY, which is what the AFRs, Profilers, and other top-shelf modern designed SBC heads bring to the table.

Quote from Darin Morgan on CFM vs. Velocity:
"Darin Morgan: "Make no mistake, velocity is the primary variable in the design of the entire induction system. I often say that my job title should be Velocity Manager instead of Cylinder Head Designer. Air speed is 10 times more important than raw flow numbers. If you kill the velocity by 10 percent, you will kill almost 40 percent of the wave and ram energy that dynamically fills the cylinder! Raw airflow cfm is an important variable as well; it's just not as important. If you buy a cylinder head that is properly sized for a flow of 400 cfm and your engine is only asking for 350 cfm, you will not only fail to achieve the power potential that the 400 cfm would have given you, you will also fail to reach the power that the 350 cfm would have given you. That's because you killed all the air speed in the induction system. If your engine is asking for 350 cfm and you give it a properly sized cylinder head flowing 350 cfm, your airflow demand is matched and your air speed is matched. You then have a chance of achieving the power potential that 350 cfm can give you."


No he doesn't, but if he can within his budget, why wouldn't he?


Adam

 

Adam,

Some good points but I am not saying that the others are not close in performance, they are but if you want a head that does all the important stuff well, then you pay a premium....all depends how important certain aspects are to you and how much you want to maximize all the potential HP for your build. The profiler 185 versus the AFR 180 is not exactly an apples to apples comparison....close but not exact. It would be like comparing an AFR 195 to a Summit/ Jegs 190 head , if they made it. My guess is if it was apples to apples the AFR's would show:

1. Superior intake flow #'s at all lifts-not by much
2. Superior Exhaust flow #'s at all lifts-not by much
3. Better velocity
4. The AFR's are CNC'd
5. The AFR's are made with premium hardware-If you have ever broken a valve spring at moderate RPM (3,200 rpm cruising) like I did with my OEM 882 heads once, you will understand the need for premium parts and not just above 6,000 RPM.

The AFR premium cost gets the above and if you are looking to maximize the airflow capacity of a particular engine with heads, cam, and exhaust...you would consider the AFR's like I did since I wanted the maximum potential mid range torque and higher rpm HP from the OEM L-82 355 without going to a 383.

I say this all the time, if you build a 383 or buy a 383 crate with 9.0-9.5:1 compression, with average heads with an average lift/duration cam for the 383, why bother? You can build a 355 with the best components that will out power/torque the average 383...easily....with almost identical mannners. Now the 383 with top components is different and will win that fight everyday, just to be clear.

As to why you would use top components to reach a 300-350 goal, the answer I suggested is don't. Use the left over money for other improvements like exhaust, intake, carb, ignition...especially on an engine reusing the bottom end.

This discussion reminds of the tire topics often discussed. You can get 8.5-9.0 tenth of the performance using a Cooper RS3-S summer only ultra high performance tire for $150 or for $200 for can get a Michelin Pilot Super Sport ultra high performance tire for a 33% premium over the Cooper but it will give you 10/10ths performance versus the Cooper. Is it worth it? Depends on the buyer, Driving style, car, etc.....

 

Easy answer. If the less a less expensive head will satisfy the builds demand any remaining funds can be used for other projects.

I don't think an engines going to work any harder making 350hp with $800 Vortecs or $1800 AFR's.

Keep in mind that 1970 350/350 was built with camel hump heads and a cam with something like 224/224 114 .450 .459. It did have the advantage of compression

A crafty builder could probably hit 350hp with a $1500 in parts.

060 Vortec heads $700
Intake Edelbrock 2116 $230
Cam & lifters Flat tapper $250

That's $1180. Add rocker arms and other misc. parts like gaskets and $1500 is feasible.

 

I would forget the intake on a 300-350 gross hp build...stock intake would work fine...get a used L82 aluminum intake...aftermarket intakes add 5-7 hp on moderate builds at best

 

Dollars per CFM IS "apples to apples" but I definitely understand what you're saying and comparing a 180cc to a 185cc head isn't exactly fair.

Luckily AFR and Profiler both sell a 195cc head so we can do a fair comparison:

AFR 195cc
.200 .300 .400 .500 .550
Int 146 201 247 275 280
Exh 119 166 197 213 218


Profiler 195cc
.200 .300 .400 .500 .550
Int 145 209 254 273 274
Exh 110 145 180 206 213

The AFR has 1 more CFM as the .200, the Profiler head then beat it on flow by 7 CFM between .400 and .500 and then above that the AFR pulls head.

For exhaust flow, again it's not even a competition; AFR beats everything there. Some head designers claim that normal flowbench #'s aren't really that important in exhaust ports, as exhaust ports don't flow at anywhere near the flow bench pressures and temperatures and what's important is how they actually flow under immense pressure and temps, but we can't make comparisons there.


When I get more time I'll happily post what hardware you get for $1,600 from AFR vs. $1,000-$1,100 for the Jegs Profilers so we can talk in specifics rather than generalities.

The $500-$600 doesn't get you $500-$600 worth of hardware or performance. BUT, the AFR brand name might be worth another $500 when you go to sell the car, in which place you could argue you get the better hardware for "free" -or at least that you make the difference in your money back.


Adam

 

noones getting good springs valves with a real cheap head then theres the potential issues of guides and seats being coencentric, stud boss location, etc.
there are plenty of companies out there selling a name brand casting but assembling them with junk;dropping a valve at idle does plenty of damage. Parts dont care what hp an engine is making
Buyer beware..

 

As I've been told many times over flow numbers don't tell the whole story.

And I agree with cuisinartvette. I'ts important to get quality parts like springs and guides.

Not sure what the OP thinks but I believe this thread has been derailed LOL.

 

Define 'good' vs. 'bad' and 'quality' vs. 'junk'?

Just because somethings better (AFR) it doesn't mean something is junk (off the shelf GM Vortecs).