Bad wheel bearing?
06-25-2018, 10:12 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Ok so I am compiling a parts and tools list.
For tools:
Bearing seperator and puller: Bearing Puller seperator
Spindle Knocker: Spindle Knocker
I plan to make my own bushing flare tool. Am I missing anything? I have seen reference to a bearing setup tool using an old spindle to get the bearing end play correct, anyone have pictures of this?
For parts, does anyone have a preference on a kit? I've found these two that both seem fairly complete to me, but I'd love some input from someone who has done this before:
Van Steel: Van Steel Rebuild Kit
Bairs: Bairs (scroll down to Part # 5334)
For tools:
Bearing seperator and puller: Bearing Puller seperator
Spindle Knocker: Spindle Knocker
I plan to make my own bushing flare tool. Am I missing anything? I have seen reference to a bearing setup tool using an old spindle to get the bearing end play correct, anyone have pictures of this?
For parts, does anyone have a preference on a kit? I've found these two that both seem fairly complete to me, but I'd love some input from someone who has done this before:
Van Steel: Van Steel Rebuild Kit
Bairs: Bairs (scroll down to Part # 5334)
06-25-2018, 10:16 AM
#22
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: hebron IL
Posts: 2,920
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C3 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
Bought mine from V-tech corvette. Very nice and affordable. I was within driving distance which saved a lot on not paying shipping fees
06-25-2018, 10:34 AM
#23
Race Director
If you use as spindle that is turned do as your 'set-up tool' that is up to you.
But you still have to figure out how you are going to press the spindle into the bearing assembly you set up. Getting a 'spindle installation tool' may be the choice.
DUB
But you still have to figure out how you are going to press the spindle into the bearing assembly you set up. Getting a 'spindle installation tool' may be the choice.
DUB
06-25-2018, 11:17 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Jealous that you live that close! I would take that option, but shipping for me is $120, not counting the cost of shipping my cores back.
06-25-2018, 11:19 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
And since I don't own a shop press , is the only part where a press is required pressing on the new bearing? I will most likely just have a local shop do that for me and I'd rather do it in one trip.
06-25-2018, 12:44 PM
#26
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
Posts: 11,061
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Using an old spindle - you just machine or otherwise remove enough material that the bearings will slip fit instead of press fit onto it.
We final installed the bearings by putting the outer race, bearing and then the outer seal into the bearing carrier. Then, we set the spindle studs down and put the carrier over it and reached through the carrier with a punch and seated the outer bearing. Once that was done, we installed the inner bearing. It's not the recommended way, but it worked just fine and could be done without a press. The hard part doing it this way was installing the E-brake hardware after bolting the carrier to the arm with the spindle installed. It's a bit of a pain, but can be done. I suppose we could have held the whole arm over the spindle as we installed the bearings.
By far the hardest part was getting the inner bearing off the spindle. The one bearing was really, really stuck. I've seen a spindle knocker for an air hammer but it'd have been a joke trying to take those ones apart with an air hammer.
We final installed the bearings by putting the outer race, bearing and then the outer seal into the bearing carrier. Then, we set the spindle studs down and put the carrier over it and reached through the carrier with a punch and seated the outer bearing. Once that was done, we installed the inner bearing. It's not the recommended way, but it worked just fine and could be done without a press. The hard part doing it this way was installing the E-brake hardware after bolting the carrier to the arm with the spindle installed. It's a bit of a pain, but can be done. I suppose we could have held the whole arm over the spindle as we installed the bearings.
By far the hardest part was getting the inner bearing off the spindle. The one bearing was really, really stuck. I've seen a spindle knocker for an air hammer but it'd have been a joke trying to take those ones apart with an air hammer.
06-25-2018, 02:05 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Using an old spindle - you just machine or otherwise remove enough material that the bearings will slip fit instead of press fit onto it.
We final installed the bearings by putting the outer race, bearing and then the outer seal into the bearing carrier. Then, we set the spindle studs down and put the carrier over it and reached through the carrier with a punch and seated the outer bearing. Once that was done, we installed the inner bearing. It's not the recommended way, but it worked just fine and could be done without a press. The hard part doing it this way was installing the E-brake hardware after bolting the carrier to the arm with the spindle installed. It's a bit of a pain, but can be done. I suppose we could have held the whole arm over the spindle as we installed the bearings.
By far the hardest part was getting the inner bearing off the spindle. The one bearing was really, really stuck. I've seen a spindle knocker for an air hammer but it'd have been a joke trying to take those ones apart with an air hammer.
We final installed the bearings by putting the outer race, bearing and then the outer seal into the bearing carrier. Then, we set the spindle studs down and put the carrier over it and reached through the carrier with a punch and seated the outer bearing. Once that was done, we installed the inner bearing. It's not the recommended way, but it worked just fine and could be done without a press. The hard part doing it this way was installing the E-brake hardware after bolting the carrier to the arm with the spindle installed. It's a bit of a pain, but can be done. I suppose we could have held the whole arm over the spindle as we installed the bearings.
By far the hardest part was getting the inner bearing off the spindle. The one bearing was really, really stuck. I've seen a spindle knocker for an air hammer but it'd have been a joke trying to take those ones apart with an air hammer.
06-25-2018, 02:49 PM
#28
Race Director
A while ago I saw thread where a forum member has the set-up tool and installation tool that DOES pull the spindle through the bearing assembly.
Maybe you can find that thread or start another thread asking if anybody has these tools to borrow or rent. If you start another thread...start in the C1-2 section also.
The reason I say this is even though it can be done as some have done. HAVING the correct installation tool is priceless because you can have all of your parking brake parts installed prior to installing the spindle. And the time it takes to 'press' in the spindle..is a joke. Under two minutes.
DUB
Maybe you can find that thread or start another thread asking if anybody has these tools to borrow or rent. If you start another thread...start in the C1-2 section also.
The reason I say this is even though it can be done as some have done. HAVING the correct installation tool is priceless because you can have all of your parking brake parts installed prior to installing the spindle. And the time it takes to 'press' in the spindle..is a joke. Under two minutes.
DUB
06-25-2018, 03:03 PM
#29
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
Posts: 11,061
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Looking back, we could have put it together without a press and with the parking brake put together first but at the time we didn't do it that way. I could have taken the time to go to a friends with a press too, but instead we forged ahead and kept putting it together while we were at it. Using a press would make it pretty easy.
06-25-2018, 04:13 PM
#30
Tech Contributor
Get the arms apart and cleaned up.
1- check the arms for rust separation and for bends. Contact me and I will go over how to check the arms with a straight edge.
2- If the outer bearing is still on the spindle when you drive it out that is good, if it moves or come off completely you probably have a worn spindle
3- Check the spindle splines and threads for twisting or rolling
4- Check the support bores with a snap gage for roundness
5- Use ONLY USA Timken bearings, I use only SKF/CR seals which cost more but I never had one fail
6- Fit the SS braking brake tools if new parts are used
7- Deburr the rivet holes & stud holes- I always install new TR studs but maybe yours are still good.
8- I parallel grind the spacer and flange. I polish the flanges in the lathe and install new shields- you might not have to do this part it's just part of what I do
9- Grind the shims to size for -0- lateral play- I don't care about the million threads that say to set them to 002" if not done correctly that 002" will open up to 004-005- still in spec but at 003" you can push and pull on the axle once assembled. DO NOT assemble until you know the bearing set up is correct, lube with light spindle oil when setting up. Use a quality grease when final installing. I use Timken automotive red bearing grease over Mobil1.
10- The rubber bushings have to be compressed and flared while compressed, check the sleeve to make sure it didn't crimp the ID, fit a bolt through them to make sure they are free and clear.
11- I tap the spindle flanges and bolt the rotors on to be under 003 runout- I always use lip seal calipers on my cars too, O rings may give you more room on the runout
You will need a quality dial indicator, I know many use the $30 imported ones, I use only Starrett. If you have or borrow one be sure it doesn't stick. Also the mount can not move, if it moves your readings will be worthless.
Find a pipe the same diameter as the inner race of the bearings if using a press- which is what I recommend over the pull tool
Have RTV ands Acetone to install the seals.
Assemble the arm, support, caliper bracket, backing plate and e-brake assembled. Install 4 new studs, nuts, and lockwashers in the arm. A new lock on the large top center bolt. Torque them so the arms are assembled, less the bearings. Grease and install the outer bearing in the outer race, install the new outer seal- using RTV on the OD. Place the axle on a support on the press, lay the arm over the axle, and press on the outer bearing using the pipe, installed the spacer and shim, grease and press on the inner bearing- at that point while under pressure there should be no play in the axle bearings. If so you're good - go to final install- inner seal, shield, flange, new cupped washer, and new nut. Torque to 100 ft/lb and pin it. Install your rotor and if bolting on set them in place and tighten. Dial in the runout to under 003" and do the other arm- you're done. If there is play your setup wasn't correct or something happened during the press.
This is only a fast outline to give you a rundown. I go into much more detail when I build them but this will get you good arms that will last a long time.
1- check the arms for rust separation and for bends. Contact me and I will go over how to check the arms with a straight edge.
2- If the outer bearing is still on the spindle when you drive it out that is good, if it moves or come off completely you probably have a worn spindle
3- Check the spindle splines and threads for twisting or rolling
4- Check the support bores with a snap gage for roundness
5- Use ONLY USA Timken bearings, I use only SKF/CR seals which cost more but I never had one fail
6- Fit the SS braking brake tools if new parts are used
7- Deburr the rivet holes & stud holes- I always install new TR studs but maybe yours are still good.
8- I parallel grind the spacer and flange. I polish the flanges in the lathe and install new shields- you might not have to do this part it's just part of what I do
9- Grind the shims to size for -0- lateral play- I don't care about the million threads that say to set them to 002" if not done correctly that 002" will open up to 004-005- still in spec but at 003" you can push and pull on the axle once assembled. DO NOT assemble until you know the bearing set up is correct, lube with light spindle oil when setting up. Use a quality grease when final installing. I use Timken automotive red bearing grease over Mobil1.
10- The rubber bushings have to be compressed and flared while compressed, check the sleeve to make sure it didn't crimp the ID, fit a bolt through them to make sure they are free and clear.
11- I tap the spindle flanges and bolt the rotors on to be under 003 runout- I always use lip seal calipers on my cars too, O rings may give you more room on the runout
You will need a quality dial indicator, I know many use the $30 imported ones, I use only Starrett. If you have or borrow one be sure it doesn't stick. Also the mount can not move, if it moves your readings will be worthless.
Find a pipe the same diameter as the inner race of the bearings if using a press- which is what I recommend over the pull tool
Have RTV ands Acetone to install the seals.
Assemble the arm, support, caliper bracket, backing plate and e-brake assembled. Install 4 new studs, nuts, and lockwashers in the arm. A new lock on the large top center bolt. Torque them so the arms are assembled, less the bearings. Grease and install the outer bearing in the outer race, install the new outer seal- using RTV on the OD. Place the axle on a support on the press, lay the arm over the axle, and press on the outer bearing using the pipe, installed the spacer and shim, grease and press on the inner bearing- at that point while under pressure there should be no play in the axle bearings. If so you're good - go to final install- inner seal, shield, flange, new cupped washer, and new nut. Torque to 100 ft/lb and pin it. Install your rotor and if bolting on set them in place and tighten. Dial in the runout to under 003" and do the other arm- you're done. If there is play your setup wasn't correct or something happened during the press.
This is only a fast outline to give you a rundown. I go into much more detail when I build them but this will get you good arms that will last a long time.
The following users liked this post:
DUB (06-26-2018)
06-26-2018, 11:48 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Get the arms apart and cleaned up.
1- check the arms for rust separation and for bends. Contact me and I will go over how to check the arms with a straight edge.
2- If the outer bearing is still on the spindle when you drive it out that is good, if it moves or come off completely you probably have a worn spindle
3- Check the spindle splines and threads for twisting or rolling
4- Check the support bores with a snap gage for roundness
5- Use ONLY USA Timken bearings, I use only SKF/CR seals which cost more but I never had one fail
6- Fit the SS braking brake tools if new parts are used
7- Deburr the rivet holes & stud holes- I always install new TR studs but maybe yours are still good.
8- I parallel grind the spacer and flange. I polish the flanges in the lathe and install new shields- you might not have to do this part it's just part of what I do
9- Grind the shims to size for -0- lateral play- I don't care about the million threads that say to set them to 002" if not done correctly that 002" will open up to 004-005- still in spec but at 003" you can push and pull on the axle once assembled. DO NOT assemble until you know the bearing set up is correct, lube with light spindle oil when setting up. Use a quality grease when final installing. I use Timken automotive red bearing grease over Mobil1.
10- The rubber bushings have to be compressed and flared while compressed, check the sleeve to make sure it didn't crimp the ID, fit a bolt through them to make sure they are free and clear.
11- I tap the spindle flanges and bolt the rotors on to be under 003 runout- I always use lip seal calipers on my cars too, O rings may give you more room on the runout
You will need a quality dial indicator, I know many use the $30 imported ones, I use only Starrett. If you have or borrow one be sure it doesn't stick. Also the mount can not move, if it moves your readings will be worthless.
Find a pipe the same diameter as the inner race of the bearings if using a press- which is what I recommend over the pull tool
Have RTV ands Acetone to install the seals.
Assemble the arm, support, caliper bracket, backing plate and e-brake assembled. Install 4 new studs, nuts, and lockwashers in the arm. A new lock on the large top center bolt. Torque them so the arms are assembled, less the bearings. Grease and install the outer bearing in the outer race, install the new outer seal- using RTV on the OD. Place the axle on a support on the press, lay the arm over the axle, and press on the outer bearing using the pipe, installed the spacer and shim, grease and press on the inner bearing- at that point while under pressure there should be no play in the axle bearings. If so you're good - go to final install- inner seal, shield, flange, new cupped washer, and new nut. Torque to 100 ft/lb and pin it. Install your rotor and if bolting on set them in place and tighten. Dial in the runout to under 003" and do the other arm- you're done. If there is play your setup wasn't correct or something happened during the press.
This is only a fast outline to give you a rundown. I go into much more detail when I build them but this will get you good arms that will last a long time.
1- check the arms for rust separation and for bends. Contact me and I will go over how to check the arms with a straight edge.
2- If the outer bearing is still on the spindle when you drive it out that is good, if it moves or come off completely you probably have a worn spindle
3- Check the spindle splines and threads for twisting or rolling
4- Check the support bores with a snap gage for roundness
5- Use ONLY USA Timken bearings, I use only SKF/CR seals which cost more but I never had one fail
6- Fit the SS braking brake tools if new parts are used
7- Deburr the rivet holes & stud holes- I always install new TR studs but maybe yours are still good.
8- I parallel grind the spacer and flange. I polish the flanges in the lathe and install new shields- you might not have to do this part it's just part of what I do
9- Grind the shims to size for -0- lateral play- I don't care about the million threads that say to set them to 002" if not done correctly that 002" will open up to 004-005- still in spec but at 003" you can push and pull on the axle once assembled. DO NOT assemble until you know the bearing set up is correct, lube with light spindle oil when setting up. Use a quality grease when final installing. I use Timken automotive red bearing grease over Mobil1.
10- The rubber bushings have to be compressed and flared while compressed, check the sleeve to make sure it didn't crimp the ID, fit a bolt through them to make sure they are free and clear.
11- I tap the spindle flanges and bolt the rotors on to be under 003 runout- I always use lip seal calipers on my cars too, O rings may give you more room on the runout
You will need a quality dial indicator, I know many use the $30 imported ones, I use only Starrett. If you have or borrow one be sure it doesn't stick. Also the mount can not move, if it moves your readings will be worthless.
Find a pipe the same diameter as the inner race of the bearings if using a press- which is what I recommend over the pull tool
Have RTV ands Acetone to install the seals.
Assemble the arm, support, caliper bracket, backing plate and e-brake assembled. Install 4 new studs, nuts, and lockwashers in the arm. A new lock on the large top center bolt. Torque them so the arms are assembled, less the bearings. Grease and install the outer bearing in the outer race, install the new outer seal- using RTV on the OD. Place the axle on a support on the press, lay the arm over the axle, and press on the outer bearing using the pipe, installed the spacer and shim, grease and press on the inner bearing- at that point while under pressure there should be no play in the axle bearings. If so you're good - go to final install- inner seal, shield, flange, new cupped washer, and new nut. Torque to 100 ft/lb and pin it. Install your rotor and if bolting on set them in place and tighten. Dial in the runout to under 003" and do the other arm- you're done. If there is play your setup wasn't correct or something happened during the press.
This is only a fast outline to give you a rundown. I go into much more detail when I build them but this will get you good arms that will last a long time.
Thanks for the summary! I'm feeling FAIRLY confident in this job, I'm more of a hands-on learner so I'm sure the parts that are a little grey to me will make perfect sense when I'm looking at it.
Friend of mine has a Volkswagen Passat with a 1.8t that has the notorious sludge issues, so he left it in my driveway for me to change the oil pump/pickup and turbo lines to try to get rid of the blockages and get it running again, but once I finish that job up later this week I plan to go after the trailing arms!
06-26-2018, 11:51 AM
#32
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Are there any advantages to offset trailing arms other than wheel clearance? Anything else I should be looking at upgrade wise "while I'm at it"?
The car is a long term keeper and will eventually have more power (currently has a roughly 300whp 350, see signature for details), and I've put some work into making it handle better (bilstein shocks all around, VB&P front coils, VB&P rear composite spring, adjustable control arms, 18" wheels with modern rubber) so I'd hate to do this job and a year down the road wish I had spent a little more to upgrade something. Or are the stock trailing arms (with new bushings and bearings) just as good as any aftermarket as far as performance and strength goes for the most part?
The car is a long term keeper and will eventually have more power (currently has a roughly 300whp 350, see signature for details), and I've put some work into making it handle better (bilstein shocks all around, VB&P front coils, VB&P rear composite spring, adjustable control arms, 18" wheels with modern rubber) so I'd hate to do this job and a year down the road wish I had spent a little more to upgrade something. Or are the stock trailing arms (with new bushings and bearings) just as good as any aftermarket as far as performance and strength goes for the most part?
06-26-2018, 11:56 AM
#33
Tech Contributor
Are there any advantages to offset trailing arms other than wheel clearance? Anything else I should be looking at upgrade wise "while I'm at it"?
The car is a long term keeper and will eventually have more power (currently has a roughly 300whp 350, see signature for details), and I've put some work into making it handle better (bilstein shocks all around, VB&P front coils, VB&P rear composite spring, adjustable control arms, 18" wheels with modern rubber) so I'd hate to do this job and a year down the road wish I had spent a little more to upgrade something. Or are the stock trailing arms (with new bushings and bearings) just as good as any aftermarket as far as performance and strength goes for the most part?
The car is a long term keeper and will eventually have more power (currently has a roughly 300whp 350, see signature for details), and I've put some work into making it handle better (bilstein shocks all around, VB&P front coils, VB&P rear composite spring, adjustable control arms, 18" wheels with modern rubber) so I'd hate to do this job and a year down the road wish I had spent a little more to upgrade something. Or are the stock trailing arms (with new bushings and bearings) just as good as any aftermarket as far as performance and strength goes for the most part?
06-26-2018, 12:27 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I am currently running 18x9.5 wheels in the back with a small spacer to clear the trailing arm.
06-26-2018, 12:46 PM
#35
Tech Contributor
Be careful with wheel spacers, they can loosen up.
With the arms off and if good, cut off the cable bracket and reweld it on top of the arms to give you a little more clearance.
With the arms off and if good, cut off the cable bracket and reweld it on top of the arms to give you a little more clearance.
06-26-2018, 03:58 PM
#36
Race Director
I take the time to achieve .001" run-out. in 99% of the arms I have done. Some may be at .002" Never do I go to 003" on the initial set-up even though I may have mentioned it due to most people are not going to spend the amount of time trying out different spacers and shims or having these parts put on a surface grinder like I have had done so I have a wide assortment of different thicknesses of shims and spacers..
When I have installed them I have acquired the 'feel' that I can tell about how much run-out on the bearing is due to feeling it when they are new and at .001".
So...I have wondered WHY when I know I had them set-up at .001". And the car comes back in 20K miles for check up and I check them for the heck of it. I can 'feel' that this run-out has increased.
Now nothing is wrong or any problems. it is just an observation I have noticed.
I attributed it to the very slight wear l on the spacer collar and shim because I have seen them, when I remove one with age on it is it HIGHLY polished and looks like it ash been chrome plated on the mating surfaces..
It is good to know that on the countless bearing I have set-up that I actually achieved -0- on the run-out I could have left it and not spent a bunch of time trying to get it to .001" run-out.
THANKS Gary for putting this into your write-up because NOW I know I can get it to -0- and not worry.
DUB
06-26-2018, 04:44 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
06-26-2018, 09:50 PM
#40
Tech Contributor
I have OFTEN wondered about this.
I take the time to achieve .001" run-out. in 99% of the arms I have done. Some may be at .002" Never do I go to 003" on the initial set-up even though I may have mentioned it due to most people are not going to spend the amount of time trying out different spacers and shims or having these parts put on a surface grinder like I have had done so I have a wide assortment of different thicknesses of shims and spacers..
When I have installed them I have acquired the 'feel' that I can tell about how much run-out on the bearing is due to feeling it when they are new and at .001".
So...I have wondered WHY when I know I had them set-up at .001". And the car comes back in 20K miles for check up and I check them for the heck of it. I can 'feel' that this run-out has increased.
Now nothing is wrong or any problems. it is just an observation I have noticed.
I attributed it to the very slight wear l on the spacer collar and shim because I have seen them, when I remove one with age on it is it HIGHLY polished and looks like it ash been chrome plated on the mating surfaces..
It is good to know that on the countless bearing I have set-up that I actually achieved -0- on the run-out I could have left it and not spent a bunch of time trying to get it to .001" run-out.
THANKS Gary for putting this into your write-up because NOW I know I can get it to -0- and not worry.
DUB
I take the time to achieve .001" run-out. in 99% of the arms I have done. Some may be at .002" Never do I go to 003" on the initial set-up even though I may have mentioned it due to most people are not going to spend the amount of time trying out different spacers and shims or having these parts put on a surface grinder like I have had done so I have a wide assortment of different thicknesses of shims and spacers..
When I have installed them I have acquired the 'feel' that I can tell about how much run-out on the bearing is due to feeling it when they are new and at .001".
So...I have wondered WHY when I know I had them set-up at .001". And the car comes back in 20K miles for check up and I check them for the heck of it. I can 'feel' that this run-out has increased.
Now nothing is wrong or any problems. it is just an observation I have noticed.
I attributed it to the very slight wear l on the spacer collar and shim because I have seen them, when I remove one with age on it is it HIGHLY polished and looks like it ash been chrome plated on the mating surfaces..
It is good to know that on the countless bearing I have set-up that I actually achieved -0- on the run-out I could have left it and not spent a bunch of time trying to get it to .001" run-out.
THANKS Gary for putting this into your write-up because NOW I know I can get it to -0- and not worry.
DUB
When setting up Tom's 31 spline axles I set them to preload. These use the same cone inner and outer, a different inner race is used.
The following users liked this post:
DUB (06-27-2018)