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Adam, it appears you are NOT, building a "race" car, track or strip.
Why would you spend $1200 or more on headers with merge collectors and "supposedly?" equal length primaries for a lowly 450hp engine?
Buy the XS Headers for only $350 made from 304 Grade Stainless Steel and Never, buy another set of headers for your car!
P.S. The primaries are 1 7/8" internal diameter, build in some "future proof".
The XS headers are just ridiculous value for what you get. No question. I do think they're DRAMATICALLY oversized for the overwhelming majority of C3 SBCs out there (1 5/8" with 2.5" collectors is WAY better, 1 3/4" with 3" collectors would be ok, but give up low end torque) and my build is particularly focused on max mid range torque. If XS had 1 5/8" headers or 1 3/4" headers for that price, it would be a much more difficult decision.
(Is a $1,000 or a $1,200 header option a legit replacement for a high-quality $350 alternative? -No, of course not.)
The main reason, though is that this is my toy and one of my hobbies and I want to do it my way and the way that sticks close to the ideal engine theory for my application and goals. That's it. I'm looking to take as much modern technology as possible and incorporate into my car and I want as many ft lbs / cubic inch as possible; aiming for the goal. The only off-the-shelf Tri-Y available for these cars with a full-length exhaust is Stan's and they're close to $1,000 coated (or maybe slightly over now), and they're mild steel; a modern merge collector with a nice small diameter collector provides many of the same torque benefits and is a more modern, higher-tech design and I think will hold onto power higher into the RPM band, so it's interesting to me.
-Why the @#%# did Richard 454 put a BMW v12 engine in his car, especially when he easily could've had a much higher HP SBC in it for far less $$ and trouble? (cause he wanted to) Why did Richard spend probably $400 or more to put an electric parking break into his C3? -Just cause he wanted to.
Does going with port injection and Holley HP with a crank trigger and LS coils provide even REMOTELY close to good value for any potential power or MPG improvements? (No, not even close; the Holley HP vs Holley Sniper decision makes no financial sense at all.)
-Does putting gapless 1.2mm Total Seal rings on 70s stock pistons provide like $300 of extra performance or mpg "value"? (No way in hell)
Is the extra $75 or so for 0.102" wall pushrods instead of 0.080" pushrods really required or worth anything even with an aggressively ramped cam? (Car has an HP peak of 6,000 if I'm lucky: nope!)
This is my first automotive toy and I want to have fun with it and make it my own. I got the car for FREE so even if I dump some money into it, I won't be horrifically underwater if I decide to sell it. Any money I end up underwater on it at sale time, I just consider "self-improvement education" and "sanity money" -probably CHEAPER than a psychologist and then I have an excuse for being crazy, still.
Adam
Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; 04-26-2019 at 04:17 PM.
Calvin also said unless your having custom headers made to your specific application to just buy whatever out of the box 4:1’s....
I definitely haven't come across that Calvin quote before.
At the same time, there's LOTS of out-of-the-box headers to choose from for our C3s and you have to choose one of them; knowing what and "ideal" header for your car WOULD look like, and choosing an off-the-shelf option that's in your budget and closest to "ideal" could be worth something.
If the only options for our cars were $350 1 5/8" coated mild steel FlowTech's, $350 XS Power stainless 1 7/8", or "$1,500 custom headers", this thread probably wouldn't exist.
Just noting that if considering a Borgeson conversion, I have seen where certain headers would not clear the unit.
I have a table above in the thread that started to document some of the SBC headers that were reported to work with Borgeson conversions and ones that were reported to NOT work with Borgeson conversions.
(I literally just searched Google and then found 10 or so threads and started documenting which headers people reported fitting just fine and which ones people reported issues with. -If it just took a small dent to make it work, I tried to note that, too.))
I definitely haven't come across that Calvin quote before.
At the same time, there's LOTS of out-of-the-box headers to choose from for our C3s and you have to choose one of them; knowing what and "ideal" header for your car WOULD look like, and choosing an off-the-shelf option that's in your budget and closest to "ideal" could be worth something.
If the only options for our cars were $350 1 5/8" coated mild steel FlowTech's, $350 XS Power stainless 1 7/8", or "$1,500 custom headers", this thread probably wouldn't exist.
Adam
That quote's in one of your header threads...cant remember if it was YB or ST.
The other side of this issue is if you have to buy a header in a box from your local speed shop? If it fits and doesn't burn things up or leak? Your good. Worry about something else
That quote's in one of your header threads...cant remember if it was YB or ST.
HA! Not surprised.
Originally Posted by jim2527
Here's his exact quote:
Quote:The other side of this issue is if you have to buy a header in a box from your local speed shop? If it fits and doesn't burn things up or leak? Your good. Worry about something else
Great find.The full context of the quote (unedited) is that for a typical street engine, Calvin would always prefer a 421 header, but if you can't, then a 4:1 will be fine, too. Full quote, unedited: Once again, if you came to me with a "street" engine, it is cammed for power below 8000 rpm, I would do everything I can to fit a 421 header. It will always make more "power" under the curve, it will have more manifold vacumn at idle and be more responsive. All those are to me the most important part of a "street" engine, (and race engines also). If I hit the design well the first time, (experience) you would have a very hard and expensive time trying to find a 4into1 header that would make more power under the curve. And if you could compare headers, they both have to fit in the same car and use the same exhaust system.
The other side of this issue is if you have to buy a header in a box from your local speed shop? If it fits and doesn't burn things up or leak? Your good. Worry about something else.
Okey dokey, this shows not to use any of your precious time on this planet talking to this Bozo !
No need for personal attacks and name-calling. It's just an internet forum discussion on headers. I wasn't trying to **** you off; surprised I did so easily.
Per the Corvette Forum Policy on "Personal attacks / hostility toward others" and general human decency:
"The Forum should be a place where we treat one another with civility so that it remains a fun and friendly place to hang around with other Corvette enthusiasts. Hostility to others is rude and inappropriate. Personal attacks cannot be tolerated. Attack ideas, not fellow Forum members."
Adam
Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; 04-26-2019 at 07:36 PM.
St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-‘18-'19-'20-'21-'22-'23
Originally Posted by OldCarBum
If you are concerned about ground clearance, check out the Sanderson short tube headers.
They offer several long and short tube headers for small block Corvettes.
They are top quality and come silver ceramic coated inside and out.
Originally Posted by F22
Indeed they are nice headers. Just installed their blockhugger pair on my straight plug heads. They are so tight, that you can barely get the plugs in! Plus, you should run boots over the spark plug wires, because the wires run so close to the pipes. They are coated for sure and that might help with the heat problem, I had with my last (unnamed brand) block hugger headers, that the number 3 pipe, ran only an 1/4" from the steering box. In the past, this pipe would heat up the steering box, which in turn, heated up the steering column shaft and then the floor mounting plate. I measured with a temp gun, from the inside of the car and got a temp reading of 160 degrees! Here's the kicker, the Sanderson headers run even closer! But due to the silver ceramic plating inside and out, the heat, might just be reduced. I will report on this, as we go, as I just got my C3 back on the road, with a 383 stroker and of course, Sanderson Headers.
I used Sanderson block huggers on my rebuild. Actually toured the factory and picked them up there. Excellent build quality and the ceramic coating doesn't carry the same bs break in warning as some of the others. Install as per instructions, took about a quarter turn on a few bolts a few weeks later. I did wind up using Taylor ceramic boot plug wires to keep two plugs, # 5 and # 6 from arcing. I have been very pleased with mine. They are not discolored and do not seem to project excess heat. And no hammer mods required, either.
Adam, it appears you are NOT, building a "race" car, track or strip.
Why would you spend $1200 or more on headers with merge collectors and "supposedly?" equal length primaries for a lowly 450hp engine?
Buy the XS Headers for only $350 made from 304 Grade Stainless Steel and Never, buy another set of headers for your car!
P.S. The primaries are 1 7/8" internal diameter, build in some "future proof".
This is an excellent question.....
1. Because some people like nice things. Regardless of it being cameras, cell phones, wine, beer, shoes or suits. Everyone's budgets and tastes are different. Otherwise we'd all be drinking $10 bottles of Whiskey and using $50 Android burner phones.
2. Features. While it doesn't seem like much the ARH piece has O2 bungs on both sides and more modern collector joints. Buy a set of $400 headers and it'll cost $XXX to have those features added and they'll look like crap from the welding and cutting
3. Modern design. Most C3 headers are 40 year old designs. General exhaust knowledge and theory has changed a lot since then. I wonder what a C3 header would look like if someone were to design one from scratch? It'd probably be like the ARH but with 'V' band connectors. Raised exhaust ports are a big problem. Most new aftermarket heads have raised ports but some companies (Profiler for one) didn't raise the bolts holes so now there's a mismatch.
But, as you mentioned, will any of them really make a difference on a 450hp SBC? Eh, probably not.
I disagree that you can buy a cheap set of headers and add features like O2 sensor bungs and maybe merge collectors and not have them "look like crap".
I disagree that you can buy a cheap set of headers and add features like O2 sensor bungs and maybe merge collectors and not have them "look like crap".
I had shorty headers with 1 5/8 inch primaries before I went with the XSPower LTH 1 7/8 inch headers both on the rebuilt/upgraded 355 L-82 and noticed zero loss in low end power with the 1 7/8 inch XSpower headers and a BIG increase in mid to high RPM power with my AFR heads and roller cam. Absolutely the best LTH C3 headers on the market made from SS and with local ceramic coating done to mine, all in I was at $520....
04-26-2019, 04:15 PM
