So you're saying bigger is always better? Are you familiar with the law of diminishing returns?

 

You just keep digging that hole.

The law of diminishing returns says the benefit still exists...even if it does get smaller.

Your argument is now nothing more than sticking your head in the sand singing “la la la, I can’t hear you”. Every point you’ve tried to make has been shot down and don’t think we haven’t noticed the lack of rebuttal. Man up! Learn from the mistake, tuck the new knowledge in your pocket and move on. Being wrong is fine IF you correct yourself moving forward.

 

They may be diminishing...but they are still there.

In a N/A combo without rules...bigger is better for power. Period. Add boost and it equalizes easier just by adding a little more boost to the smaller package.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to make 1.5 HP per cube on pump gas. Add 100 cubes...add 150 HP. Hook that power up and walk away from folks.

Build a highly developed package and it's even more.


JIM

PS- I'm beginning to wonder if the "Kid" part is accurate......

 

You clearly don't understand the law of diminishing returns.
Maybe pictures will help. lol

 

[QUOTE=427Hotrod;1602616231]They may be diminishing...but they are still there.

In a N/A combo without rules...bigger is better for power. Period. Add boost and it equalizes easier just by adding a little more boost to the smaller package.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to make 1.5 HP per cube on pump gas. Add 100 cubes...add 150 HP. Hook that power up and walk away from folks.

Build a highly developed package and it's even more.

Bigger is better for more power, really? talk about digging a hole for oneself, you guys dug yourselves a crater!
I guess Porsche has it all wrong, they should drop the turbocharged 6 banger and put in a 454 stump puller.
lol

 

THIS GUY DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE LAW OF DIMINISHING RETURNS EITHER

 

Dude...you're comical and lack reading comprehension. I mentioned boost earlier.

Put 20 psi on that Porsche and then put equally configured 20 psi on the 454 and come back and tell me the results. It's still going to make more power.

Cut that Cummins in half..guess what? It will make half the power.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here? How about comparing a 427 smallblock to a 427 bigblock? If the heads are up to the task that small block is going to do well with the lighter weight. But power won't be much different if equally configured.


JIM

 

Let me state one simple thing because bigger is better right?

Drop a turbocharged 454 into the 911, how does it handle? We go back to the law of diminishing returns. More horsepower but handles like a bus. Right?
We are not just talking about farm equipment here, we are talking about the pros and cons relative to the car in general. Read my earlier posts.

Besides we are going in circles. If your argument is that more C.I.D equals more power, you are correct
but it is meaningless without context. (images above)
Let's agree on the above and disagree on its overall effect on the driveability of a car.

Just for the record, this whole thing started do to my opinion that a shorter stroked 427 created less low-end power and more high-end power which I believe creates less wheel spin off the line, hence better hookup and on the big end (more HP) which is where you want it. imo

 

You really need to drive a proper 454. Your low compression smog motor compared against a higher compression 427 is a poor comparison. There's no difference in handling between the two....and if you've got a 454 that won't go over 5200....you've got a broken 454. Heck...there's no difference in drivability with my 555" when it was N/A and making 871 HP. Drove just fine and took multiple cross country road trips with no issue. It could idle all day....run low speeds and scream to the moon. I prefer to have the extra power and control it with my foot.

Again I love 427's....but there's a reason folks always build bigger. It actually increases drivability. Chevy did it because they were losing power with lower compression and smog rules. Adding cubes helped

I get your premise of a handling car....but I didn't see much of that in your posts...just blanket statements about fantastic 427's and rotten 454's.

I'm out...

JIM

 

Is the 427 going to handle better than the 454 in the 911

 

To all the veterans on here.......toobroketoretire? You think?

I am the OP. I would appreciate more information about building the engine I am asking about, and less about 427 versus 454. Its not what I was asking. I need more information and details about achieving the engine I want to build from those who know. Just asking. What blocks would be best, what heads, what intake, what cam, what carb, etc. I want an original looking engine, with the limitations I set in the beginning, for the least amount of money without sacrificing longevity. That is the information I wish I could get here.

Where's Jebby? Leigh? Mako? Vortecpro Gkull? ....all probably not interested in back and forth about 27 cubic inches. And Mark at Vortecpro has already PM'd me, and I expect we will be doing business in the future.

 

Good call on Toobroke, this clown sounds just like him. I learned that I can destroke my 502 and really make some power!😀😀😀

 

BACK ON SUBJECT before the thread gets closed....
Are you going for a 427 block or a 454 block with a 427 crank? The 454 MK4 block will be the most reasonable way to go as they are pretty cheap stripped. Then is just the machining cost to clean it up. Now a good 427 crank is hard to find but you can find an aftermarket one for around $800 bucks. For my build I'm going the used route on everything except the internals besides the crank. I dont want to blow up this motor due to a major component failing.

heres some stuff thats out of my price range that might help you

this is a nice one and its in PA. The block looks like it has been cut for a roller cam retainer so thats a good thing.....if I had the cash this would be in my car
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...5233920589926/


I messaged this guy and he was hoping to find a vette guy for this. It was in a race car that developed a lower end knock. He believed a pin had seized. Its a great place to start
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...82733226513711


THis is a 7115 cam, bigger and heavier for the L88 and HD builds...supposedly...IM just looking for a 6223 or a very good cast crank. Not looking for more than 500 ftlbs/500hp for my build, but a cast crank would survive up to 600hp but who wants to chance that
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...79354535732044

 

Honestly I would just buy a 496 rotating assembly and be done, and it doesn’t even have to be forged.
I have built them both ways forged versus cast, and never had a problem or failure. A 2 bolt 454 works fine and you don’t even need a roller cam, and it will still make gobs of power.


69 Corvette 3speed auto, .070 over 41/4” crank 3.08 gears Hydraulic roller mid 230s intake, Mid 240s exhaust at .050 GM 990 heads, stock exhaust ported just where the manifold meets the head, aluminum LS-6 intake, HP 950 CFM carb. Working factory air, ps, pb, all factory looking under the hood



Scorpion roller rockers clear stock valve covers

If you want to save even more money, .060 over 454, cast crank, Kieth Black hyper pistons, stock rods with good bolts, Edelbrock rectangle port heads, hydraulic roller in the 240 intake-250 exhaust at .050. This was going in a 67 Camaro that instead went into a circle track car that I beat the **** out of for 2-1/2 seasons 6500 rpm plus for hundreds of laps, and it just got pulled for its intended purpose, still running perfectly, and looks brand new inside. It also has stock exhaust and a HP

950 carb 273 rear gears

67 Camaro convertible.030 over 4-1/4 stroke (makes it a 489) 230-240 @ .050 hydraulic roller, Edelbrock oval port, power everything, 3 speed auto, 3.08 gears stock exhaust manifolds, has Jebby’s favorite carb- the avenger, and still pulls hard to 5800-6000 All of these examples rev instantly, and will shred rear tires until you ar tired of holding your foot on the gas

Edit: the hoaky fuel filter on the vette was temporary until the correct metal one was obtained, also notice I was able to get a carb spacer on the carb of the Vette to get the air cleaner lid higher off the carb, and still cleared the BB hood. I also run the largest mechanical fuel pumps they make without having to use a pressure regulator. I think they are 140 GPH and the 160 requires a regulator which I don't like. I have not had a problem using the 140 even on the race car (circle track) but the race car was right on the ragged edge of fuel starvation.
Also had a small cap electronic tach drive distributor hidden under the ignition shielding.

 

Back to the OP. To bad your thread got hijacked. Something else to think about. I don’t know about where you are but around here good machine shops are getting hard to find. Consider a short block from somebody like Blueprint or ATK. Then build the top end as you desire or look at someone like Edlebrock top end kits. Not only will you save a bunch of time you will probably save some money. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

I can get a factory LS7 big block, crank, rods and pistons locally for $1500. It was in a race car, so I would need to get the block inspected before I would buy. It is my understanding the LS7 was a performance engine available from GM, never put in a C3 Corvette. High compression...in fact too high for pump gas...so pistons could be replaced. I have to do more research on this....anybody have an opinion on this?

 

Check out BP4960 at Blueprint. 496 short block cast crank forged pistons longer rods assembled $4300.

 

Your initial post is basically just running around in circles between stock and more power/torque, but not wanting to spend more, but wanting better, but not wanting to upgrade, but wanting better.

You're the only one who can decide how far you want to go. I get you're bored, but...its not something anyone can actually tell you. Want stock? Build stock. Want better? Figure out how much better, how much you want to spend, and how much additional effort you're willing to go through.

Stock manifolds are a hindrance to maximizing power, but the same basic formulas still exist - more air, more power. Cam profile changes a bit, but otherwise, better heads will produce more power, more displacement will produce more power, etc, etc. Pick which direction you want to go and you'll get better answers.

 

I tried to explain it,.....but I guess it didn't work....here I go againl

- Stock iron exhaust manifold into 2-1/2 inch exhaust pipes, and some appropriate mufflers. Why? I spent thousands of dollars on super duper headers and mndrel bent exhaust system on my 77....and the still did not fit. I just want to buy simple factory system that fits....tired of the BS.
- Intake manifold that will fit under factory style big block hood....NOT L88 hood. My understanding that limits it to a few factory manifolds that are poor performers compared to others. Edelbrock nor anyone else apparently produces these,...so its used GM. I also would prefer a Holley, but I suppose the right carb is a Quadrajet.
- 15 X 8 factory size tires,... i.e. Coker redline replicas, BF Goodrich, or Coopers.....NONE of which are great performers so massive torque is simply unnecessary when all I will do is spin.
- Factory appearance externally.
- Mechanical fuel pump
- Factory 4-speed clutch and transmission

These are all required. I will not start down the path of changes these for extra performance. I will never drive over 70 mph, I don't race, and I don't need to do burnouts in front of people. I simply want big block power to accelerate fast when I want to. I understand that much of what I want is far less than what it could be.

SO....with these parameters, how do I get there.

- I could build a 427 with exactly the parts GM put into the engine in 69. BUT, this stuff is expensive compared to a 454. I would do this if it wasn't for the ridiculous prices on 427 parts.
- I could build a LS5 with exactly the parts GM put into the engine in early 70's.....or I could use the LS5 block and use a crank for a 427 or 496. don't care if that is not "original" for a 69. I am putting the 427 emblems on the hood no matter what engine is in the car. It appears this would be much less expensive than buying 427 parts.
- THEN.....I am asking you guys to give me other options. Jim says a 496.....okay, maybe that's it.....and I get that, as the extra cubes should compensate somewhat for my restrictive choices, and still give me power. I keep hearing about late model truck engine blocks that can be bought for little,...and go from there.

As for what I want....I want a very torquey powerful big block that gives me the thrill everyone talks about when talking about C3 big block engines. My 77 now has a 406, built by Jim Barth, that I will have on the road in the spring. It cost me alot of money. It has all great components. I might have a more powerful SBC than this 69 big block with my limitations. Fine. I played ALL the upgrade games with this 77.....it has all the good stuff. I cannot do it again with this 69.....it simply is too much money. I like the idea of embracing what the 69 was in 69. I don't want to have to make all those "upgrade" decisions on the 69.....I just want it to be original. So, maybe the answer is just build a factory 427 with original parts. Just seems that there is a few things I could do, within my limitations, to build a big block sleeper for a little less money, and possible tweek out a little more power. And it would look original.

Does that help?

Lastly......I want it to be a quality build with good components, but it does not have to be the absolute best of everything. I worry about flat tappet cams simply because of the horror stories with break in, ZDDP, etc. I don't have to have roller stuff.

 

I checked that out....could be a good direction.