Getting ready to pull the trigger on this does anybody have any first hand experience with this transmission or have seen it? I am looking to put it behind a new engine going in for the spring.
So far the basic engine specs are SHP block 4.125 internal balance 3.75 crank, Dragon Slayer 235 heads milled to 64cc, intake BM1000, cam is yet to be determined, Wisco pistons compression should be around 11.25. I am planning on electric fuel pumps for the volume to a 930 cfm carb.
I know this isn't a new combination so what are some of you guys running?
Now some questions any body have solid input on clutches and flywheels? I do already have a Lakewood scatter shield setup to install plus the pedals. I am leaning towards hydraulic clutch setup. I do run hooker side pipes so i need to look at that for cylinder filling and the rear ratio now is 3.70 but I may change that too.
Jebby, Gkull and other where are you?? what ratios would you be looking at for the OD

 

One of my buddies, George, is not on here but has a GM crate L88HO with EFI and sidepipes and a TKO 600 2.87/.68 OD with a 3.70 rear
I have been getting feedback from him as I build my own version.
10" wide ZR rated 18" tires. Overall 1st gear is 10.6
His driving Feedback:
It's a lot of 1st gear but driving it around town it works very well.
Tires will not quite hold full throttle in first gear, even being easy/slow on the pedal. Spins them "pretty good", but doesn't really blow them away.
It'll spin them pretty hard in 2nd too.
OD is his problem.
1500 at 50, 1700 at 60, 2000 at 70.
It will pull just fine in OD from as low as 1500. Lotsa TQ.
The problem is a nasty sidepipe resonance he gets from 1500 til 2000. With his gears that is 50-70mph.
It doesn't go away until over 70/2000. Too many headaches below that for cruising. Better with the windows down, back one out, (coupe), but almost unbearable with the windows up.
Changing the rear now to a 4.11 That will move 2000 down to 60 and then he can use 5th gear around the back roads around here. Right now he can't.
He's got hooker sidepipes. I am not sure which set of inserts he has in it, but he has tried a couple, it's still pretty loud.

I wrote a spreadsheet for our C3s to play with the gearing.

I am going with more normal undercar exhaust and mufflers. Hope that gets rid of the resonance issues.

I will be ordereing a TKX soon. As soon as I decide on WR or CR gearing.

 

That's a very informative spreadsheet! Any tips on how to interpret some of the data? I'm clueless when it comes to transmission ratios.

Also, it looks like we are located not to far from each other! Small world.

 

Leigh thank you for that post it was very informative. I wonder if we could get a few folks on here together for a group buy on the transmission
I already have the scatter shield and pedal setup. I believe I can modify the stock th350 x member and shorten/balance the drive shaft here locally
Maybe we can start a new thread for a group buy........

 

Not directly relevant to experience with this or even a tko, but ratios are ratios.

if you are running a 3.70, you can get away with the .64 o.d... but it’s a big step from 4th to 5th and vice versa on a downshift.

I run 3.55’s, and general flow of traffic in my area can lead to a lot of up and downshifting so for me the wide ratio tko was out. I ran a Richmond 5spd o.d for a season before I broke it. The .77 5th was perfect with 3.55.

In my opinion, the 3.70 gear set would be the minimum for the .64 or .68 od.

 

I know the ratios depend allot on what the car is used for. To be honest it will be mainly used for cruising and the occasional ride down the track (not every weekend) and I would actually like to run an autocross event or two with it.
Presently the car in street trim runs 12.7@107 with its 350 TH350 and 3.70 gears.
The problem here is the RPMs are high on the highway so I would like to lower them hence the TKX. Next seeing I am pulling it apart I may as well add some power so more cubes
seeing we totallyt blew the budget of a few grand for just a few upgrades why stop lets do the rear-end now too.
In all fairness the engine was coming out to be overhauled the guides are leaking and she is burning oil, and the rear is starting to make funky noises every now and then.

 

In all honesty, if it was my car, and maybe some extra imaginary money... and since your doing the rear anyway...

Id drop the rear gear a hair to either 3.55 or 3.36, and go with the .82.

you’ll have plenty of first gear with that 2.87 multiplying against either rear gear, and the car will feel more natural shifting between 4th and 5th.

 

I put a TKO600 with .82 in my 73 with a 3:55 rear running 255 tires and love it. I have chambered exhaust and before on the highway it was loud. I am now running about 2450 at 70 and my modified 350 has plenty of torque to leave it in 5th at lower speeds. I can also now hear the radio again. I also like the more even spacing of all the gears with the .82. I had a Muncie M21 in before and the TKO comes out of the hole much better. I also just changed suspension and think the arrangement now would be great to autocross or on a road track. Something else to think about, the 6 speed will require some tunnel modifications. The TKO was a bolt in conversion.

PS nice spreadsheet, you just need to define where you want to be with each gear.

 

Yes I keep going back and forth on 1st gear ratios, cruise rpm, and gear split rpm drops.
Probably not going to be able to make up my mind until I drive/ride in someone's and see how that combo is.
My 3;55 geared Muncie LT1 cruised fine at 3000 rpm, at 70. It didn't mind a 3500 rpm cruise but the oil would heat up after 15 min and oil pressure would drop. But it was always "intense"
I am looking for a much more relaxed cruise (with BBC 550 TQ) I think 1900 would be fine. Just worried about resonance noise if I go lower. And don't know if I want that rpm at 60 or 70.
If I go for that at 60 I can at least use 5th gear from there up. It's only 2400 at 70 then. That combo could be had with a TKX CR with a .81 OD and a 3.36.
Might be just fine there.
And then the 2500 rpm shifts fall to 1600,1600,1900,2000. Not bad. That's one of the things that made the CR Muncie so nice, the gear drops got smaller as you went thru the gears.

That's George's problem too. With the WR he has only 2000 at 70. And wants to drop that 2000rpm down to 60-65 or so. Will take at least 4.11s for him with his .64OD.

 

I have a combo very similar to what the op is considering. 434cu in Shp block, AFR 227 72cc heads. cam is a custom grind comp cam hyd roller. I have about 10.2 static compression, and experience no detonation with our crappy 91 octane pump gas. Im using the edelbrock pro flow 4 EFI With 42lb injectors. I would really advise talking with the engine builder about your projected compression ratio. Also be advised u will absolutely need to have an excellent cooling system. Im also running an oil cooler. The exhaust is a Custom 3” SS dual exhaust bolted to ARE 1 7/8 headers.
I have a TKO 600 with the .64 od. Im using a ram hyd throwout bearing and a ram dual disc clutch. And of course a lakewood steel bellhousing.
I just updated my differential to a Toms 12 bolt posi build kit using 3.73 gears. I had 3.55 gears, but my kit came with the 3.73’s so I used them. I also installed 3.5” halfshafts and 1350 u joints everywhere. Ill update how I like the new gears when I get the car off the lift this week. But the 3.55’s were fine.
sounds like a solid build you are doing.
I had mine on the dyno before I updated the exhaust and the larger FI, it was putting down 455 rwhp and 450 rwtq, Ill get it back on the dyno to see what the latest upgrades have done to improve that.

 

Jebby

 

Then you loose whatever gas mileage yo hoped to gain on the highway. I would stick to the .64 OD and just use it when you get on the highway. You're generally just putting around the beaches and not getting above 40 to 45 anyway for any extended amount of time. The amount of torque you're going to be developing you could start out in third gear with so i would run the 3.70 you have and build up the 3.36 and just swap the two out during the summer to see which you like more....Im betting the 3.36 will still spin the tires through the first 4 gears anyway...

 

To each his own. For me gas mileage is a minor concern, as I don’t have high expectations of winning in that arena.

For me, it’s all about rpm, the comfort of cruising at decent speeds below 3k, and diminishing wear and tear on my motor.

in my part of the country, cruising at highway speeds will be anywhere from 50-70 based on traffic volume. That could easily turn into a lot of 4-5 and 5-4 up and down shifts. With the 1000 rpm change on a .64 tko, this would be very undesirable for me.

When I had the .77 Richmond, everything was great... you could still effectively use 5th at slower speeds on local main roads, and comfortably keep up with traffic on the highway.

When I put my Muncie back in I quickly saw how the m20 was the worst of both worlds by comparison. I lost my first gear oomph, and it’s on the edge of what I will tolerate on the highway at age 45.

For me to spend the money on a .64 o.d, and only use 5th like an occasional accessory would have felt odd and like a waste of money... but not everyone’s driving style and traffic patterns dictate the same things.

 

But you probably aren't running around with 600ftlbs + of torque on tap either. torque makes it possible to have 3.08 and 3.36 gear ratios. We aren't talking about some little 383 small block....its an 8 liter small block!!!! a literal monster in sheeps clothing, this thing is going to rip your face off, show it to you, tear it into small pieces and shove it down your throat kind of power...I think it's closer to 700 ftlbs. he's looking for launch power and cruising fuel mileage....might get into double digits with the .64, maybe. But it's going to be sucking fuel through a garden hose at idle so every little chance to be in a low rpm is a good idea if the gas stations are more than a few miles apart.

 

I am running a 454 that showed 560 ft lbs on an engine dyno, so while it’s not 600 plus ft lbs, it’s no slouch either.

with that said, I did enjoy reading your description... you’d fit in well with my circle of friends

 

I'm over 20 years and 100,000 miles with 4.11 and .64 OD. Even with the 2.87 first gear is so nice to take off from just above idle. I have tried two flywheel weights 22 pound 168 tooth 11 inch clutch steel SFI and 11.5 pound aluminum 168 tooth 11 inch SFI. I'm going to change back to the 22 pound when I stuff my refreshed 434 back in. The machine shop said that the block was ready for pickup.

Even with 4.11 the 4 - 5th jump is big! So it is not good for road racing. I had to buy a spare rea end and build it with 3.55 gears for road racing and use it as a 4 speed. Most tracks once you are moving you only use 3 gears. So 3.55 I used just 2-3-4 and my top speed was limited to mid 150's. So it would be into the rev limiter before the braking zone.

street driving with 3.55 .64 OD was about worthless and I kinda had to be going over say 85 to cruise and have a happy engine. The western states are mountainess, so you had to go 85 to not shift down on the freeways. 252/256 solid roller cam 11.7 C/R Idle hot is 1050 -1100 rpm.

I don't see 235 cc dragon slayer heads. 225 cc and about 302 cfm intake and 200 something exhaust. That kinda limits the HP. on the Wallace racing calculator. As a example and I think that Skip White motors exaggerates power level figures, or they have the one special motor for the dyno sheet. But read the specs on what they have for cams and heads to get the 600+ hp SBCs that they sell.

Estimate Horsepower from Intake Airflow (wallaceracing.com)

As to using a 930 cfm carb on a little 400 ci motor. It's not needed. I have bench flowed 830 cfm custom pro built and I never felt a need for bigger. You have to look at the big picture and where is the restriction. Big plenum single planes use less CFM carbs. I also recommend the 4 hole wood thermal spacer to give the carb boosters the biggest signal. A rated 930 cfm with annular boosters would be a excellent choice. I also just use the stock A/C Delco mech pump with .160 titanium needle and seats with just over 5 psi in my fuel log. Never run out even in the one mile drag races at the airport where I went through at 167 or something like that years ago.

 

Very exciting build!

im working to get mine running agsin after 10-12 years of storage. Decided to redo everything except the drivetrain.

I have a similar setup.
427 sbc. Little M block
Afr 210 heads. Flow right at 300 cfm st .600
Solid lifter cam. With 1.6 ratio rockers it’s about 676 lift and 248 duration at .05. I think a bit too much cam. Was supposed to have 1.5 rockers but I got tired of waiting on the motor.
10.2 compression ratio
hooker header sidepipes with spiral baffles
Fast xfi efi on a Dr. J ported Motown single plane cut down 5/8” to keep it under hood. Drop base air cleaner. Ran in Alpha N mode due to efi signal issues.

4-link 9” with 35 spline axles and Detroit locker
3.25 ratio. Chromoly yoke. FYI. Major rear storage boxes work to make this fit properly. Some fabrication and welding too.

tremec tko with 3.27 first gear, .68 OD.

centerforce dual friction clutch with steel flywheel and Lakewood housing. Bow tie crossmember modified for tranny and loop. 3” chromoly driveshaft with 1350 Ujoints and chromoly ends. Had to relieve/make two pockets in two spots in the tunnel for the Driveshaft and yoke.

I didn’t get much drive time or track time but below are a few points re my experience.

1. 410 rwhp at 5800 rpm. I think I had a lack of airflow and efi signal issues. Went to a stiffer vslvedpring to control valves better. Added a crank sensor, uncapped the spiral baffles To get it to rpm better. This was also with the air cleaner on the car. Later found out I had clutch slippage issues as well.
2. It would fry the tires in 1,2,3rd gears with street tires. Had traction problems and clutch slippage problems at the track in 1st and 2nd with 28” x 10.5” slicks but part of that was a 4-link setup issue. Ran 2-3 runs 120 mph at the track with a smoked clutch and peddling it to keep it out of the wall. Time was very bad. 12.8 ish. Then the car went into storage.
3. I set the above noted tire size and gearing to finish the quarter mile in 3rd gear (only two shifts). I have the calculations somewhere but I think at 6500 rpm that would have given me approximately 130 mph with my above gearing.
4. I like the Detroit locker but it’s a straight line setup. Not bad for cruising but the car shimmies a click or two going around corners, lol. Better than a spool for street cruising. I just didn’t want to break anything else.
5. Tko shifts bad at high rpm from 2-3. I have an older one. I think the newer ones are better. Thinking about getting a tkx like you to make this better. Problem for me is the gearing change, shifter change, driveshaft change? Not sure in TKX length. Also my tranny is the weak point in the driveline at this point. Used to be the reared with the irs.
6. I also bought a McLeod dual disc rxt clutch and hydraulic bearing. Should allow me to lower the clutch throw and help avoid my knee hitting the column.
7. I’m rewiring the entire car with an AAW harness and new efi harness in an attempt to resolve my efi signal issues.
8. I should have it running again next year.

 

Lol...you should come cruise the coast with us sometime. It's usually me and JKippin followed closely by the local constablatory wondering what all the noise is about. Johnny is a go big or go home kind of engine builder. I'm trying to build a 427 that wont go over 500 ftlbs and blow up my tranny....its usually a lot of laughing and looking for law enforcement..

 

Sounds like we could have a good time. Someday I'll get this car off this island again, and go somewhere, so its not beyond the realm of possibility.
....although on an immediate basis, chances are you and I are preparing for the same weather right now!

 

my neck of the woods is saying anywhere from 2"-20". the average for the weathermen is about 8" or so. Boston itself is going to get blasted apparently. On that note I dont have a functional engine either, It muddied itself In JKippins driveway....I might just be a coincidence but I cant say for sure. But I am hoping for that 427 build for myself!!!!