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No flares, all the P&B work is done. I'll probably go close to stock, maybe a little wider. But since I'm not racing it, and it won't have huge torque off the line, I don't think I need massive rubber on the road. And I want to stick to 15". I don't really care for the large diameter wheel look on classic cars. Doesn't look right to me. Probably because I'm old.
So here is my first stab at putting together a parts list for this engine. The more I've thought about it, the more I've wondered what effect lightening the RA might have, even if I don't change the stroke. Plus I suppose an argument could be made that 50 year old cranks may suffer some degree of metal fatigue. So I'm including the possibility of a new crank. I have two listed. The Eagle is a lighter, but it seems like Callies has a better reputation. What do you think about that?
When I plugged this into a comp ratio calculator, it gave me a static value of 10.48:1 if I got all the numbers right. That's with the stock deck height though. If I need to have the deck leveled, I'll have to mess around with the gasket and/or pistons to get it right. I don't have a cam in there yet, but maybe use something like Leigh mentioned above.
Originally Posted by gkull View Post
how can you get 11.3 out of a 383? I don't think that you understand how the bypass actually works.
What does bypass have to do with compression, I think we are talking apples and oranges?? I'm running 4cc flat tops .008 in the hole with 62cc (measured average) chambers which is 11.3:1 with a .041 head gasket.
How can you get 11.3 out of a 383 is a legitimate question. Things like .008 in the hole isn't a normal engine. It tends to mean that the block was really warped to require that much surfacing, vs your typical .025 in the hole. minus 4 cc valve reliefs is also not a normal performance forged piston. Because they are made to accommodate larger valve diameters and higher lifts. generally they will list like -7 cc and then add in the amount of gasket to block diameter and the distance to the top piston ring. .041 head gasket isn't the best choice ending up with .049 quench.
As to oil bypass. If you open up a pump and look inside the size of the meshing straight cut gears determines the volume of the oil pumped. So way back when we used to buy the Z-28 oil pumps because they were taller pump gears. Then melling came along and made high vol pumps. The pressure coming out of the pump is limited by a spring and ball check valve. as pressure opens the ball the flow is dumped back in the oil pan. Bypass.
Some of those 50 year shop workers never keep up on new things. I've had bubba experiences in both Wyoming and South Dakota supposed drag racers and race shops that screwed up perfectly running complete race motors that I delivered to them. The bubba people could not figure out me delivering distributors that idled with 22 degrees of advance with only 12 degrees of mechanical advance for a total of 34 degrees with AFR 227 cc heads. So they put stock distributers on them to get 10 - 12 initial and 38 total just like the 1970 chevy manual. One of the motors had a bench flowed AED 950 cfm on single plane a 421 ci. I had set the pressure to less than 5 psi with a return type pump. They thought that the fuel pressure was too low so they put on and electric with 9 psi and the first time all the bubbas fired it up it was blowing gas out of every vent hole. It filled some cylinders with gas cranking it over causing the motor to hydraulic lock ruining the motor. It destroyed the NASCAR anti foaming big diameter higher flow needle and seats and then told everybody that I didn't know how to build motors and carbs. This was a dyno tuned boxed up motor ready to install in a drag car.
It's like talking to rock explaining things to them. I said that I would like my dizzy back and the shop told me that they had thrown it away because it didn't have enough advance. I set it up on a machine to only have 12 degrees.
I've come to realize there are several types of so called race engine builders regular builders that put a hot cam in a stock build the kind that put an roller cam and AFR HEADS and then port an L-82 intake lol. Guys that build. bracket race engines that aren't looking for every horsepower. Real race engine builders in search of every horsepower and engines that hold together.
Reading the op original comment I wonder if a440 Chrysler would work in a c3, with aluminum heads intake water pump housing it weighs less than an iron small block. 500 horsepower and torque would be simple. Oh well just a thought.
Lighter will accelerate & decelerate more quickly. It takes horsepower to move RA mass; the less RA mass, the less HP is wasted on moving RA mass and available to move vehicle mass. In addition to lighter overall mass & quicker throttle response, a 6.0 or 6.125 combo will produce longer piston dwell at TDC and thus doesn't require quite as long cam duration. OP stated a 425-450 HP goal and that's easily attainable w/ 3.48 stroke; so why complicate things w/ a stroker? KISS. FWIW, it takes a different set of (learned) skills for a driver to have track success w/ very light RA.
Uh, yea, I've built good strokers as well; first an early 50's pan bottom w/ mid 70's 80"shovel barrels & heads BUT all atop ca 1940 80" flathead wheels. made some 84" w/ all OE production HD rods, wheels etc; this when largest motor HD offered was 80" ... not a racer but more of a vintage custom; after more than 40 years, it still runs! For the uninitiated, their hand-fit crank individual roller bearing tolerances in 0.0001"; some ten times closer than chevy, No stranger to good sbc strokers as well.
The first thing that I would do is sell those heads. Those heads have short valve stems and springs limiting to .540 lift. The heads valve diameter is actually the limiting factor on head flow. you should look at heads with 2.05 , 2.08. If you want over 400 hp you need to be looking for 195 to 200 cc intakes. I'm also an angle plug person because they generally use 3/4 inch deep reach plugs. Lot's of threads.
Rods. You should be looking at 6.00 inch II like higher end stuff because you only have to buy them once and they are good for lots of rebuilds. I also like rods that have HP ratings. Like both my engines have 1200 hp ratings
Crankshafts. 42 pounds is a common light weight quality crank. Like I said when cranks cost the same price you might as well get the longer stroke. Their are all kinds of SBC stroke length.
These are the rockers that I use. They kind of have a lifetime partial warranty. Like I have some that are loosening up and I can send them back and I get new ones for about 1/2 price.
Uh, yea, I've built good strokers as well; first an early 50's pan bottom w/ mid 70's 80"shovel barrels & heads BUT all atop ca 1940 80" flathead wheels. made some 84" w/ all OE production HD rods, wheels etc; this when largest motor HD offered was 80" ... not a racer but more of a vintage custom; after more than 40 years, it still runs! For the uninitiated, their hand-fit crank individual roller bearing tolerances in 0.0001"; some ten times closer than chevy, No stranger to good sbc strokers as well.
Well, since you mentioned shovels, here is mine.
Leigh, I had never heard of BAM either, but I ran across them. Did some searches and found some folks saying some really good things on other boards. These guys were using them in their drag and circle track cars. Apparently BAM is a company started by a guy named Brad Miller, who was the Director of Manufacturing Engineering at Crane Cams.
The first thing that I would do is sell those heads. Those heads have short valve stems and springs limiting to .540 lift. The heads valve diameter is actually the limiting factor on head flow. you should look at heads with 2.05 , 2.08. If you want over 400 hp you need to be looking for 195 to 200 cc intakes. I'm also an angle plug person because they generally use 3/4 inch deep reach plugs. Lot's of threads.
Rods. You should be looking at 6.00 inch II like higher end stuff because you only have to buy them once and they are good for lots of rebuilds. I also like rods that have HP ratings. Like both my engines have 1200 hp ratings
Crankshafts. 42 pounds is a common light weight quality crank. Like I said when cranks cost the same price you might as well get the longer stroke. Their are all kinds of SBC stroke length.
These are the rockers that I use. They kind of have a lifetime partial warranty. Like I have some that are loosening up and I can send them back and I get new ones for about 1/2 price.
I haven't bought anything yet, just trying to decide on what combination of parts make sense. The only reason I picked the TFS heads was because they are madeto look like the stock heads and I wanted it to look as stock as possible. And I figured they would be good enough to get 425 hp. But that's not a "must have". The intake will obviously not be stock anyway. Speaking of intakes, I forgot to list that. I do already have a Performer RPM. Would that be a good one to use for this build?
I was looking at the 6" rods, but I don't know enough about SBCs to know the benefit. You can use lighter pistons?
Bikes! I used to have a business that bought the "Hardcore" name brand fat tire chopper kits and made custom choppers. S&S 124 ci with a 6 speed tranny. We used to show them in the vendor area of the Reno Nevada Street vibrations motorcycle week long festival.
I was ask once by a big rough looking biker dude if I also owned a Harley Davidson? I told him that can't own a Harley!
"Why not?"
I explained that there are 3 reasons why I can't own a Harley.
1. I don't have any Tattoos.
2. I like to take showers.
3. I like my women to be skinny!
It's a good thing I had a group of big friends around! All my buddies were laughing! Most of them have multiple Harleys and rice bikes.
Crankshafts. 42 pounds is a common light weight quality crank. Like I said when cranks cost the same price you might as well get the longer stroke. Their are all kinds of SBC stroke length.
You guys are killing me with all the big cube talk. Believe me, I understand, more CI = more HP. I just built a stroker for my son and my next build will be a big block stroker. I love strokers. But for this engine, I'm looking for something different. Like a LT-1 on steroids. Plus, if I start getting up over 500hp, I've got to start worrying about the rest of the driveline, right? How much will the Muncie, stock driveshaft, diff and halfshafts handle? I don't want to have to spend big bucks upgrading those.
And gkull, don't think I haven't thought about spending the money on the crank and not getting some free cubes with it. Maybe a 377? If I needed to do that to get to 450 hp/torque, I might.
Bikes! I used to have a business that bought the "Hardcore" name brand fat tire chopper kits and made custom choppers. S&S 124 ci with a 6 speed tranny. We used to show them in the vendor area of the Reno Nevada Street vibrations motorcycle week long festival.
I was ask once by a big rough looking biker dude if I also owned a Harley Davidson? I told him that can't own a Harley!
"Why not?"
I explained that there are 3 reasons why I can't own a Harley.
1. I don't have any Tattoos.
2. I like to take showers.
3. I like my women to be skinny!
It's a good thing I had a group of big friends around! All my buddies were laughing! Most of them have multiple Harleys and rice bikes.
I'm with you on all three counts! I don't even have a leather jacket. And I always wear a helmet.
I'm with you on all three counts! I don't even have a leather jacket. And I always wear a helmet.
It used to be the whole west coast didn't have helmet laws. So I was one of the few with quality racing full face, neck collar, racing type leather jacket and pant with all the protective plates and spine protector, gloves, and racing boots. Even when it was over 100 degrees in native Las Vegas.
When the helmet laws in Ca came out I stopped riding.Smart to wear one yes but at the time I was a litle defiant.
Never owned anything leather, and couldnt stand the mentality. Everyones a tuff guy soon as they get on.
Always rode solo, refused to join any stupid clubs. At the time lived at a 1 percenters clubhouse to boot lol
When the helmet laws in Ca came out I stopped riding.Smart to wear one yes but at the time I was a litle defiant.
Never owned anything leather, and couldnt stand the mentality. Everyones a tuff guy soon as they get on.
Always rode solo, refused to join any stupid clubs. At the time lived at a 1 percenters clubhouse to boot lol
Always wore a helmet because it was just habit. Started with dirt bikes when I was 12 and my parents made me, of course.
But I get what you're saying, we're supposed to be living in the land of the free. Kinda like the vaccine mandate. OH WAIT, don't get that discussion started!
I worked in an independent M/C parts and accessory shop in the late 70s/early 80s. Sold a LOT of used Harley parts. Knuckle/pan/shovel stuff. It was mostly to 1 percenters, and wanna be 1 percenters. Rough dudes, but they liked me because I sold them parts. Or maybe because the shop was owned by an ex-marine. Even they didn't mess around with him.
If you want a very fine tuned combination, I would call Bullet cams. They seem to have an enormous range of cam lobes available, not the limited selection others offer.
Like every 1 degree duration. With multiple valve lifts at each. And very good technical support too.
If you like say the 230-245 duration range you would probably have 30 lobes profiles to choose from!
They can dial-in your idle vac to what ever level you want.
FWIW I have 15" vac at 850rpm on a 230/240 lift SR in a 468 BBC. I am talking to them about re-camming it to get like 500 more revs out of it with only a little less idle vac, say 13ish. I am asking a lot, want to keep the good strong low end, but I want 6500+ too!
On the heads, just buy AFRs, they're the best. Then epoxy the double humps on the front, and paint them orange! Now THAT would be sneaky.
I would think it would be easy to get over 450 with the kind of parts you're talking about, and near 7000 rpm too. That would really be a super-LT1!
Update: My bad, I just checked my Bullet cam lobe list I am considering. They have 5 PAGES of lobes in that range!!!
Last edited by leigh1322; Sep 26, 2021 at 12:53 PM.
Loved the old shovels, pans and old school chops. Gotta know someone with a truck to follow you half the time though .Like owning a C4 and carrying AAA
Leigh you probably know at a point if your valve timing events get too extreme and youre hammering the valve into the seat (like XE cams) it shortens life. May have to spring it up a little more too in order to not lose valve control upstairs.
Wasnt worth the 5 or? Lbs of torque to me, just get a bigger cam, do headwork instead etc. Keep us posted
still want a big block in my "El one day..no need for one just want.
Thanks for the tip on Bullet cams, Leigh. Cam tech is probably the part of engine building that I struggle with most. So it will be good to talk to someone who has a wide range available and the willingness to help.
I haven't bought anything yet...............................,
I was looking at the 6" rods, but I don't know enough about SBCs to know the benefit. You can use lighter pistons?
Yes, you can use a lighter piston.
big block, small block, ford or chevy makes no difference. as rod gets longer it gains a little mass, but as piston gets shorter, it sheds even more mass.
and ALL the different weights are Not 1:1 . The small end of rod Cross-section has relatively little mass per unit of length as compared to piston's X-sectional mass per length (height). Even though steel weighs more than aluminum; the long rod-shorter piston combo weighs less. Big end mass is Rotational; Little end mass is Reciprocating. For 90* V motors (sbc, sbf, etc) the small end of rod's mass counts only Half in tallying bobweight balance as opposed to big end's mass which counts 100%. rod bearings (on big end) count 100%. Piston-pin-lock & rings (on small end) count 50%.
You guys are killing me with all the big cube talk. Believe me, I understand, more CI = more HP. I just built a stroker for my son and my next build will be a big block stroker. I love strokers. But for this engine, I'm looking for something different. Like a LT-1 on steroids. Plus, if I start getting up over 500hp, I've got to start worrying about the rest of the driveline, right? How much will the Muncie, stock driveshaft, diff and halfshafts handle? I don't want to have to spend big bucks upgrading those.
And gkull, don't think I haven't thought about spending the money on the crank and not getting some free cubes with it. Maybe a 377? If I needed to do that to get to 450 hp/torque, I might.
You're overthinking this man. Build a 350, because thats what you want (clearly, by your replies), buy some GOOD heads, match it with a good custom cam, build a really good exhaust (THIS... is where you need to ask questions...), strong compression, tight quench, quality rotating assy... and you'll be happy.
Maybe just memorize what Gkull's car looks like so you dont pick a fight with him...
All my buddies were laughing! Most of them have multiple Harleys and rice bikes.
Believe me, I understand, more CI = more HP. I just built a stroker for my son and my next build will be a big block stroker. I love strokers. But for this engine, I'm looking for something different. Like a LT-1 on steroids. Plus, if I start getting up over 500hp, I've got to start worrying about the rest of the driveline, right? How much will the Muncie, stock driveshaft, diff and halfshafts handle? I don't want to have to spend big bucks upgrading those.
