Quicktime or Lakewood ALuminum

 

So why didn't you go with a 5 or 6 speed .

 

I considered a 5 speed. I know I am somewhat different than the crowd, but I know myself well. I usual reject what the "crowd" is doing....but anyways, there are multiple reasons..

First off, I like the original four speed shifter in the C3 Corvette, with its sloppy and loose shifter feel, although my rebuilt shifter is as tight as it needs to be, and I have never missed a shift. Second, I live and drive my car in Western Pennsylvania on two lane twisty and narrow roads.....and I rarely exceed 60 mph. A fifth gear, and especially a sixth gear, is not that much use to me. Third, a five speed transmission, most likely a TKX, with the TOTAL cost of all that is needed, is considerably more money than these four speeds.

But THE most important reason is what it does to the "character" of the car. My love for these cars is rooted in the 70's. It is rooted in that time in my life, when all my uncles had Chevelles, GTO's, 442's, and Corvettes.....lots of them. The car is "not just a car". Its my time machine, and when I open the garage door, and climb behind the wheel of this beautiful machine, I get to leave 2022. The "character" and "soul" of these cars for me is more important than the money I spend, its more important than what "technology" exists today, its more important than fuel economy. In my opinion, for me and what this whole thing means to me, REQUIRES that the car remain to be what Chevrolet designed it to be. The driving experience is completely unlike anything else I have to drive today. My 2015 F150, and the wife's Camry offer ZERO satisfaction......none. And they are both full of modern technology. They are comfortable, fast, quiet, and easy. My Corvette is so much more than that. Looking out over that hood, starting the engine with NO Choke, Holley Double Pumper, backing out of the garage with manual steering and brakes, and then driving away shifting through the original design 4-speed, no airconditioning, T-tops off, loud and beautiful exhaust sound, (no radio to interfere). And then the torque of a SBC.....soon to be even more out of my 406. I don't care about "technology" or a "fifth gear", because THAT experience of driving this car, the way I built it, is better than ANYTHING I have ever experienced in a driving machine. And it is that way BECAUSE of the character of the car. WHY would I ruin that?

I know the TKX would have been a nice tighter shifter....it would have helped on highway driving. Maybe the ratios would work out to provide something better? But NONE of that matters to me. It would be just a step in the direction of taking the soul and character out of the car, and turning into something more efficient, more modern......but in my opinion, NOT better.,,,,,in fact, the opposite of better. That's me, and I am so glad I see it that way. Have no interest in changing......its what makes it special. I have done it before on old Harleys, and it ruined the bike for me. No thanks.

And if I wanted a modern Corvette.....I would own a C5 or C6. What I have is a very well built, strong and like new 1977 Corvette....just like Chevrolet designed it. I prefer that. People either understand it, or they don't. Much like the Harley phrase......if I have to explain it, you would not understand.

 

What is the listed TQ rating on those 4 speeds. TKO 600 is very much like your 2.99 first gear 2.87 and it works perfectly with my 4.11 rear end. I also did a a car with a 3.90 rear because of a lower rpm H-roller. It gives you the ability to take off without hardly slipping the clutch

 

CorvettePassion I installed a TKX in my C2 anticipating installing a detuned aluminum SBC Dart racing engine out of a Haas 68 vintage T-70 Lola I have. It made 820hp from its 358ci displacement. Mean while the driving experience with the 5 speed has really been a pleasure especially interstate driving. The short shift pattern as you mentioned as one of the reasons for lack of interest was annoying for me also, so I replaced the shifter with the taller Hurst factory look a like. Problem solved. I hope everything turns out well for you as you really have paid your dues on the engine.

 

Been following this thread from the start. I am adding this information for the benefit of others also following. I am sure that VortecPro and other’s now involved in this build know more than what I am presenting here. Regarding the “DART SHP Block” the lifter area is machined for later-model OEM roller lifters (Dog-Bone Links) and also traditional aftermarket side-linked lifters. (See Photos)
I believe that the OEM Dog-Bone design can only be used with cam lobe lift of approximately .350” ( .560” total with 1.6 rockers )?
The OEM design lifters and the Dog-Bone Links start to bind? If higher lift is to be used the aftermarket “Side-Link” design should be used?

NOTE: The first photo is the OEM “Dog-Bone” design and links two lifters from the top of the lifters.
o

Aftermarket “Side-Link” Design.

 

Mark intends to use Johnson link bar style lifters. The original lifters are junk now.

 

That sounds like a good reason for the m23 and it seems like it has the fine spline input shaft as well for more power

 

Apparently Autogear has not rated the M23Z. Jody says he will not recommend it on engines larger than 540 cubic inch. I do know that they have been used on alot of Chevelle big block builds, including VortecPro big block builds. I am not a bit concerned that I will ever have issues with the M23Z. Its entire existence was to cure the weaknesses of Muncie and Borg transmissions, with all its components stronger and built better than the originals. It will be well more than I need....which is the way I like it.

The gear ratios in my transmissions are geometrically spread, for even RPM drops between each gear. 1st - 2.99, 2nd - 2.04, 3rd - 1.47 and of course final 1:1.

Jody Haag knows transmissions. Anyone interested.......contact him. You will not regret it. Tell him I sent you.

 

I can tell you one thing........a beautiful July day without a Corvette to drive is very disappointing.

 

what's plan x or y if/when this phase also doesn't meet expectations ?

 

I don't know what that means.....are you being sarcastic, or what? Is this a serious question?

I drove this car over 25,000 miles since I bought it and restored it. First with a very strong 350, with the rebuilt Borg T-10. I then replaced the 350 with a stronger 406, still with Borg T-10 and despite all the internal problems, the engine was noticeable stronger and the car driving experience was as good as it gets for me. With a Vortecpro rebuild, the bigger cam, and all the problems resolved with it, AND a new Autogear M23Z with 2.99 first gear and lighter flywheel, everything leads to an even greater experience. I was happy with the car before,......why would I not be even happier now?.

I am not sure what the intent of the question was, or was it less a real question and more a cynical comment? If you want me to comment any further, you are going to have to be more specific as to what you are truly asking ....or commenting......I will be waiting.

 

Have to agree with this. Newer tech is not necessarily better tech. Just the opposite in many cases.

 

I agree completely. I occasionally consider the idea of maybe someday buying a more modern Corvette, as a second car,.....a C5 or C6.....not interested in C7 or C8. But then I will spend some time roaming the C5 and C6 tech threads on this forum.....and what I read just makes me happy I have my C3.

Update on the progress is that I am just waiting for Mark to finish the engine.

In regards to one of the problems I initially had last summer, I have decided I am removing the NOS heater shutoff valve, and either just bypassing the heater system....again (drove it a couple years that way)....or I will plumb in a hardware store valve. I suspect that initially, no matter what, I am running the engine for awhile without the heater system hooked up. I may also find an easy way to not have the headlight vacuum hooked up.....since I rarely need it. Like I may plug the vacuum port on intake manifold where the headlight vacuum line attaches, leaving the vacuum line installed in the car. .I just want the engine to be independent, without vacuum being tapped off it, just to isolate it. Question on that......with a good, sealed headlight vacuum system......would there be any carb adjustment changes required if I were to disconnect the system versus having it hooked up? With a leak in the headlight system.....I know there would be a difference because it would be a "vacuum leak". And that is my concern.......its all good till there is a leak, which can happen ANY time. So....why have the risk of that for systems that are rarely used. If I were to get caught out at night, I open the hood, plug in the vacuum line, and now I have headlights........as long as it is not going to require a carb adjustment. The other alternative is the one I had for the first couple years.......just open the headlights manually.....takes about 2 seconds.

My 69 project is going to add a third,....and very well known and problematic issue....and that is the windshield wiper door system. I am learning about all the problems with that now...and suspect, I will find a "manual" solution to that as well.

I have got lots of pushback on this line of thinking in past threads, over the years, but it usually comes from people who are more interested in "originality" than the practical side of the matter. My viewpoint is based on actually driving the car 5000-6000 miles a year, and having to deal with poor reproduction parts failures, or old NOS stuff that is just too old to work anymore. The aggravation of this pinging / ticking / snapping noise in the heater system distracted me from enjoying the driving because the problem was an unknown....and it affected the quality of the experience. Simple solutions like a plumbing store shutoff valve just seems too easy to ignore, no matter how "bubba" it seems.

 

As a member of the peanuts gallery here setting up a priorities list to correct issues properly/correctly and responsibly makes for a better car long term. Your cars will become more reliable, dependable, easier to repair and worth more also over time to boot. Numbers matching really has nothing to do with having a mechanically/electrically sound safe automobile. If your not sure how diagnose and repair systems (certainly not all DIY know the answers) so spend the time to learn and figure it out. Even figure out a better design and share it. That is a rewarding hobby in itself. I know in the end we are just a custodian's for a time until the next person takes over the responsibilities and custodianship of maintaining or setting up their own goals for our cars. IMHO

 

If your headlight vacuum system is sealed and working disconnecting it and plugging the port should make no difference in how the engine runs. I have a 71 and i keep mine connected since it's not leaking - yet - even though I hardly ever drive at night or in the rain (vacuum opens the wiper door). In case something happens I always keep a couple vacuum caps in the ash tray so I can pull the hose off the manifold fitting and plug it. If your system isn't leaking you may want to consider just keeping a couple vacuum caps in the car in case the system fails in some way.

Pat

 

I am going to try to respond carefully to your above post, but I must warn you, I don't have alot of patience after what has gone on with this engine. And, you are a long time poster, I have enjoyed your input. But I would appreciate a thorough and complete answer to the following questions, one subject at at time. I truly am interested in the discussion, and not just one liners that do absolutely nothing to help me or anyone else.

1. So if I understand this correctly,...my obligation is to fix the heater system failure i.e. the pinging / ticking / snapping noise "properly and correctly, and responsibly" rather than just bypass the heater system or install a hardware store valve to turn the heat off and on, when needed. I posted a thread on this forum about this very subject, prior to this thread, back in summer of 2021..It went about 15 posts.....with absolutely no real help. The problem continued all of the 8000 miles I drove it in 2021. I listed it at the beginning of this thread as an item to troubleshoot this winter.....and nobody in this thread came up with any useful idea as to the cause of this noise, just lots of speculation, very little help in troubleshooting it. There was some suggestions on troubleshooting, which I had ALREADY accomplished before I even posted this thread. And after clearing that up.....it was crickets. No further advice. In the end, I got no useful information from all the people here on how to fix it "properly, correctly or responsibly". Secondly, it is widely known, with multiple threads over many years, that people install plumbing store valve in the heater system BECAUSE the vacuum system regularly fails. What exactly should I do at this point to "properly, correctly and responsibly" troubleshoot this problem.....because its not going away magically, and I am not really sure what I am supposed to do next. So......despite me spending 40 years in aircraft maintenance, troubleshooting and repairing countless issues,.....I have no idea what to do next. There is 20 feet of vacuum lines, there are vacuum relays, vacuum actuators, and the console vacuum switch......each of these could be a problem to isolate, and then replace with junk. So for me,.....a better solution is simple. Bypass it, which served me very well for many years of driving the car.....or putting in a small valve, for which I can turn by hand if and when I need heat. To this very moment......I have no idea why the noise was occurring....but it was. That IS a problem to solve, but I have no solutions, from anyone. IF you have the solution as to why the noise happenned, I would appreciate the input so I can fix it. But I am NOT tolerating it any longer, once the engine is back in the car.

2. Headlights. I started driving this car after my 4.5 year restoration without the vacuum headlight system connected.. It worked just fine on the once every few months I ended up out after dark. I pushed them up manually. Eventually, I had enough confidence in the engine, I thought I could go ahead and tap off vacuum, and see if I could make it all work. Why.....because vacuum system leaks become ENGINE performance problems. Problems occurred immediately. Apparently the headlight switch vacuum feature had leaks.....and it simply did not function. So....I was able to bypass the headlight switch, and just use the under dash switch to put them up and down. I was NOT going to pull the dash to replace the headlight switch with junk repro parts. So once again....your solution is for me properly, correctly and responsibly" tear the whole damn thing apart just so I have a headlight switch that puts them up and down the way Chevy designed it. I guess I just don't have what it takes or the patience, or willpower to FIX poorly designed systems, with junk parts. Instead, I put the headlights up and down with the under dash switch, the few times a season I need lights. I feel no obligation or responsiblity to install a junk reproduction headlight switch into the car, especially given the amount of work it would take to do so. It just does not matter in real life.

3. Looking forward.....on the 69, the absolute silly complicated windshield wiper system, with its solenoids, switches, valves, etc, with COUNTLESS threads on how it does not work,.....is another challenge for me to "carefully, properly and responsibly" troubleshoot, set up, and make work.....even though the very common threads are out there about junk reproduction switches that either never work from day 1,...or fail shortly after put in use. Or maybe, too many people just don't have the smarts to get it all right. I just really lack the motivation to "do what it takes" to make the system work as designed....especially given the junk parts that cost money and don't work. Again.....I have turned on my windshield wipers ONE time over 25,000 miles of driving the 77.

4. I sure as hell am not going to worry about installing fiberoptic cables and lights because GM thought that "knowing when your marker lights go out" is a required system. While some people find this a "cool" design feature of early C3 Corvettes......I find it to be absolute useless nonsense. That is all I will say about that.

I guess I am being pretty defensive right now. I sense it as I write this. Some people find great satisfaction in analyzing, troubleshooting and "conquering" these systems.....which are apparently not that well designed, nor supported in todays parts marketplace. I am NOT one of those people. Especially given the fact that the heater system, the headlights, and windshield wipers are THREE systems on this car that I almost never use in my 5000-8000 miles per summer driving I do. Why it matters to the majority of Corvette owners that are lucky to put 500 miles a year on the car....I don't know.

And lastly......the "responsibly" part really gets to me.....as if I have some responsibility to someone, or something, that I am obligated to repair these systems because of what? Some rule, unwritten law, or some group of people, or whatever that says I must do it. Its as bad as the NCRS telling people how their car should be built or restored.

I could not care less about "who gets my car" after I am dead. I am NOT a caretaker of the machine. Its my car, I own it, and have built it for me.....nobody else. And what my car is WORTH......are you kidding?. People on this forum look at a 77 as a $10,000 car........I have five times that much money into it. Its not worth anything to anybody out there......because the "market" says so.....and everyone believes that BS. I will never sell the car, cause I am not giving it away to people who do not appreciate what I have built and what the car REALLY is worth. I am way past tired of hearing about it from con job salesman and people who spend their time with Corvettes worrying about the "market value".... I don't care. My car is built from the ground up, better than Chevy ever built it, with quality components, finishes, and choices that make this car far worth more than any "original" Corvette with working vacuum systems. Maybe that is one reason I take offense to the idea that if I choose to bypass these system....somehow my car is worth less. Wow.

Your suggestion that I work to come up with solutions for these problem....i.e. "a better design" is EXACTLY what I am doing by bypassing the heater system, by just manually putting the lights up and down, and by manually opening and closing the wiper door. You can't get a better solution than replacing a complicated system, that has a known record of failure, no longer has parts support with quality parts, with a much simpler system that works EVERY time, every time you need it, and never fails. Seems like I already accomplished that. Seems like I should be applauded, rather than what appears to be a lecture on the right way to do things

I could spend days, months, and hundreds if not thousands of dollars to make these vacuum systems work, but I will not. I care too much about driving the car, enjoying it on the road to make stupid systems work, that are completely irrelevant to what I use my car for.

Yeah....I am kind of irritated about your posting, and the implication I took from reading it. Maybe I am just not in the mood. I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted what your intent was....but if not, apology rescinded.

Maybe I need a beer.

 

Thanks for the input. I think you have some good ideas on dealing with the poorly designed system on the car, as well as what is apparently lack of quality parts available.

 

What has really set me off today is that the original engine builder has apparently found this thread. He is sending me some money back, which is nice......but it is petty cash and hardly compensates me for the losses I have had and will have when all said and done. The total cost of this is going to be high.

But listen.....he pointed out that the springs in the heads we installed ARE Hydraulic Roller springs......THEY ARE NOT SOLID LIFTER SPRINGS. Mike Jones says the spring pressures are too high. I have a set of damaged hydraulic lifters, that Mark Jones is talking about replacing with $750 lifters. I have a cam that is tracking....i.e. the rollers are already eating into the lobes to some degree....so THAT cam, the $500 cam is not something I want to reinstall. And, Mark is going to replace the springs in the heads....at whatever cost they are.

WHAT IS THE TRUTH.......was the spring pressure too high on these springs with these lifters. I can only assume they were because what is the explanation otherwise for all the damage, and noise, of this valvetrain. I need answers.....not one line sentences. I trusted Mike Jones about half way through this thread that the spring pressures were too high, and now the original builder points out that they ARE hydraulic springs....not solid lifter springs like many in this thread have suggested. AND HE IS CORRECT.....go to the AFR website and it says that. Open spring pressure? Seat Pressure? What is right? Who is right? Mike Jones? The builder.....? Who on here knows the truth......or everything a damn mystery. What am I supposed to do?

Yeah....I am furious right now. I need to talk to Mark Jones tomorrow.

EDIT - Bickering over the words "solid" lifter springs or "hydraulic" lifter springs is stupid, and nothing more than deflection.....just like politicians. What is the TECHNICAL matter is, is the spring pressure too much or too little for the hydraulic lifters selected and installed. Call the springs anything you want.....but what matters is the proper combination of parts. The builder making a point about terminology does NOT address if the pressure is correct for the lifters installed. It makes sense to me that you have to have the right combination. Mark Jones emailed me last night and stated that the valve spring pressures are too high for the lifters installed,.....and the results show that ......the lifters are junk, the cam is tracking, and the valve stem tips were wearing prematurely.

 

I woke up hoping I had calmed down.......but I have not. I am very fed up with the inability to come to conclusions on technical issues. This is not politics or religion.