When my engine builder ran my new engine on the dyno, he didn’t like the oil pressure the pump was putting out in the higher rpm range.
He said he likes to see 60 psi.
He pulled the pan and swapped the pump from one standard pump to another standard pump and got the results he wanted.
He said that in todays world you never really know what you’ll get until you actually run the engine, and pump outputs can vary from one manufacturer to another.

 

If Blueprint Engines come with a vacuum advance, they certainly don't advertise it on their website. Perhaps, like the HV pumps, they are making sure the engine survives past the warranty period.

 

As mentioned a couple of times...having the relief valve bypassing all the time is not good. A stock GM pump bypasses to the inlet/pickup tube which introduces the strong possibility of aeration/foaming, and it heats the oil.

While discussing pumps in general...I've seen some pumps where the bypass port/piston isn't machined properly and doesn't completely uncover the port. In those cases the pressure isn't regulated properly and the oil pressure keeps increasing.

On the Glyptal...I love the way it looks...and if folks get it applied properly it will stick. If not...it can end up in places it doesn't belong. Years ago I saw some testing where a Glyptal painted block and a non painted one was tested as far as oil return with cold as well as hot oil. First...hot oil is like water and flows really well. 2nd.....once there's a film of oil on the block surface...the returning oil flows over the top of it as if it's on a cushion. They couldn't measure any difference in returning oil speed/volume. Similar to the boundary layer which occurs in an intake port where air flows smoothly just off the port wall.

But again...certainly can't hurt if it's applied correctly. I personally don't spend any time polishing/painting internal block surfaces for oil return...but I do spend time on the openings to enlarge them as much as possible, make sure gaskets don't impede flow and try to direct it where I want it.

My 555" crosses the line at 8K RPM while feeding twin turbos also....and has been doing it for years with a very simple oiling system, proper clearances and a $25 HV Melling oil pump which I spent a little time on tightening the clearances etc.

JIM

 

There is a whole counter culture of people out there that is like an echo chamber of bad information and urban myth pertaining to these old engines........these people set timing by ear, or with a vacuum gauge, bolt Edelbrock carbs from pep Boys on a Q-Jet intake with an adapter for "performance", have religious epiphanies over oils and additives for fuel, swear that ethanol in your gas is destroying your engine....and they all run HV pumps....because more oil pressure is good oil pressure.......these kind of "enthusiasts" generally hang themselves around here and don't come back....but Facebook seems to be the cess pool for which they can breed this special form of bullshit.........because there is no community filter on FB.......just ******* central.......
In 1997 when I first started working for Gianino Racing engines in Royal Oak, MI......I was a greenhorn 26 year old half a man who loved engines.......and within about a month, most ALL of the urban myths were destroyed in short order.......but the biggest one was the venerable HV oil pump.......
I sold a 388ci small block to a guy back then who was going to put it in an old Curtis Indy car that had been widened for two people.......now mind you, this was before the Dart Little M block or the World Motown block......all that was out there was the Dart Rocket block (which is still available to this day) and the GM "CNC" bowtie block with iron or splayed caps.......so we went with the GM block.....this was a Dart Raised runner 23 degree head, Dart intake and upper midsized solid roller cam......10 to 1 compression.....pump gas.....it made 630hp@7100rpm on its first pull but the second pull was down 50........we know this means it is hurt so we jerked it off and opened it up......it scrubbed the main bearing.....so polish the crank and put some Clevites in it as opposed to the new Fed Mog ****.....same deal....scrubbed bearings.....
So the guy who bought Gianino who was an old Pro Stock racer from the 70's....got a hold of Grumpy (yes, that Grumpy).....and he told my boss that the CNC bowtie was just a stronger version of the stock GM block and all was identical internally.....even the oil passages.......and Grump said they all need to be enlarged...especially the vertical oil passage in the back from pump to cam......AND...the groove around the cam journal needed to be enlarged which required an all day setup on a Bridgeport with a saw looking type mill that cut around the cam bore in the groove......the lifter feeds were enlarged with a 3 foot long Goodson drill bit that required a gentle hand as to not snap it.......all this work and the result was 650hp at 7300rpm......pretty impressive for 1997.......this engine had a HV pump on it and the owners son commented on how it made too much pressure at idle (he built his own 358ci Pro Stock Truck engines)...but we shipped it.....
Fast forward to 2005 when I went back to work for them......now the Little M and the Motown was available (by that point I had worked at World too and had machined several Motown blocks, balanced 100 cranks, machined Merlin heads, etc...).....this is when I sold a guy in Detroit (10 miles down the road).....a 406 Little M deal.....we tested this engine back to back with HV pump and a Std. pump.......this is the engine that we saw 7 more horsepower with the STD. pump.......turns out the Dart Little M oiling is SO efficient...that you do not need a whiz bang pump under 7000rpm......it was perfect......right about this time Melling redesigned the pump housing on the HV pump due to "cracking" issues and released the 12 part numbers of pump we all know and are confused as **** on now.....
This is just my experience on the small block pump......the big block oil pump is a WHOLE other story......with the short version being you do not need it in a street engine either.......I am not here to try and be right about something, the internet has enough of those, I just want to tell what I know from being there and doing it.......
Jim runs an HV pump on his 555 twin turbo 8000rpm setup....this is a whole different country!!! LOL! That is an example of an application that can use it!
Oh...and all those stories about 8000rpm 302DZ engines is pure bullshit too.....the bearings would have never survived.


Jebby

 

I've had high vol melling oil pumps in ALL my roller lifter builds for the past 30 years. But it takes some thought as to what is going on. I would not trust an engine builder that pulls a high vol pump because he doesn't understand that you set the operating oil pressure with the weight of the oil. Mentioned before 20W-50 will run much higher pressure on the gauge than 5w-30. Roller lifters need all the oil they can get at lower rpm like idling at a stop light. I have sets of the best solid rollers that are in their 5th engine rebuilds and the wheels are still in great shape. I've actually had to replace comp cams Pro Magnum Steel roller rockers because they loosened up. Just a side note Comp cams lifetime warranty on them means that you send yours back and for about 1/2 price you get a new set.

To run high volume: I really opened up and contour blended the oil return holes on all my different heads for the various builds. AFR heads I machine a oil return channel on the whole length of the outboard side to keep the oil seals from swimming in oil. In stock high nickel 4 bolt blocks I install .110 drilled out morroso top end oil restrictors which gives the stock block a priority crank shaft oiling by cutting down the flow to the top end.

I also run blocked off bypass on the block in the oil filter. Yes, Jebby all my motors are made to do 8000 rpm and I rev limit set them to 7500 to make them last. I worked on stock block Sprint cars 358 ci that did 8800 rpm every lap

So yes I'm all for high volume if you understand that oil pressure is set by the oil weight. Excessive pressure is a bad thing! But so is lack of oil on roller lifters at idle.

 

Wonderful story Jebbsan!

Vaguely similar to my engine builder buddies Jeff's experiences with Jim Delassandro's National Record Holding Buick GNX V6 back in the 80s/90s (Atco dragway). He was getting sponsored by GM. Got free HD Race 4.1 Buick blocks shipped to him regularly. Because he was blowing the cranks out the bottom of the block with regularity. Well it was a 1200ish HP V6! The turbo was larger than the block, and the intercooler larger than both.

He sent blocks back to GM and they couldn't figure it out. They just shipped another block.
My buddy Jeff figured it out, and Jim never lost another crank. It was burning up the main bearings. All the internal oiling holes had to be enlarged with a 3 foot drill bit. I helped him do it. Cool stuff and very similar to the SBC story.

Any info on BBC oiling you can share?

I know almost zero about building a BB. That's why I had Jeff build it. The one for my C3 is my first. My LT-1 was 100% reliable racing it to 6800 rpm for 25 years, with a stock Z28 HP Std Vol pump. But I do not have anywhere near the same confidence with a BBC. And for some reason Rescue has lost main bearings now...twice. Now I am getting more nervous about wanting to rev it to 6500.

 

Thanks Jebby. That's a very good point and makes sense.

 

If things are right..it doesn't take a lot of pressure to keep one alive. Lots of BBC drag engines cross the line at over 9K RPM running 40 psi. BUT...they are also running oil as thin as WD-40 and hold about 2 psi when hot at idle. And many of those run an external scavenge pump system or even a dry sump. But they also get opened up for inspection regularly for inspection/maintenance.

I run clearances on the "loose" side on my serious stuff because regardless of what parts are in it...things move around at high RPM and stress. And with turbos and pressurized lifters, in my case a HV pump keeps my hot idle oil pressure in the 20-25 psi range.

I re-did a pump gas 528" Hemi for a buddy who had a big time Hemi builder do his engine. It spun 4 rods soon after the dyno session and it was in the car. The clearances were all over the place and too tight. And after they re-did it all twice...and I checked it before assembly...we gave up and I decided we'd do it ourselves. And of course that was just part of the issues we found. It's been running fine at 7000+ RPM ever since.

Also re-did a 540 for another buddy that was built by a well known crate engine place and had very few mile son it.. Lots of good parts....but clearances again were off and it had bearing issues. We fixed all of that and it will be fine.

The average SBC will do fine with 50-60 psi at higher RPM. Some engines with giant main bearings seem to do best with more pressure...like the Buicks and even old FE Fords were over 100 psi in the hot ones. There are some other newer engines way up there too. OEM's have dual stage pumps these days to drop pressure when not needed for fuel economy, but kick it up pretty high under load.

In the big truck diesel world pressures are in the 40 psi range as opposed to the old days of 100 psi, but RPM is a lot lower also these days.

Proper clearances go a LONG way to making things live a long life.

JIM

 

Well.....off the top of my head......the Mark IV oiling is primary main oiling but the main oil artery is along the drivers oil pan rail so stroke clearance is not an option for anything larger than a 4.375 crank in the Mark IV Bowtie block.....Dart and World moved the pan rail oil passage up to up near the cam...which allowed 4.750 stroke for 632's.........a DAMN good block if you can find one, the Bowtie.......the first Gianino "bellybutton" 540's were built with this block.....Reher Morrison and Sonny's used them too......the factory Mark IV oiling is excellent, but a couple of things stand out.......first, to run an HV pump you must install the block restrictors that most everyone offered for years that screwed in the back to that had about a .120 orifice to limit oil to the top end.......most solid lifter engines got them because of the 7000rpm capability to keep from sucking the pan dry....the HV pump and the oiling passages were that efficient.......the other thing we found out the hard way was that crossdrilled cranks are a problem after 7000rpm......we had scores of main bearing scrubs before someone suggested we try a standard oiling Lunati 4340 crank.....no issues after that........

Jebby.

 

Yes..the BBC is a better design with the oil rail down the side of the block. I'm using an old Merlin II block, but on the later Merlin III and Dart blocks that came out later, they incorporated the "stepped oiling" system where the main gallery changes size to maintain pressure the length of the passage.

I don't run any restrictors. I did try them once when I was chasing oil pressure issues with the original Moroso pan I was using. Didn't help any.

Finally swapped to the Milodon pan I use now and all issues went away instantly. That little extra stroke makes a BIG difference on windage handling.

JIM

 

We were chasing oil issues with the Moroso pan too...the old 20410 kickout pan......went with restrictors and added one quart to the pan and it stopped.....the issue was with throttle stop cars too so lots of slosh......

Jebby

 

OK let me ask you guys your opinion then.
I don't know how good the factory Corvette pan is for a solid lifter BB to say 6500.
Most racers seem to use really big oil pans.
Did the 435s or the L88s run OK with stock pans? Or have any oiling problems?
Does the longer stroke of a 454 cause any extra issues?
There are very few LS6 corvettes to get info from, and IDK if the Chevelle LS6 pan may be different.

 

Yep.....it worked great on my 427....but the front section of it is stock and though it clears....that 4.25" stroke doesn't work well with it at high RPM. Tach goes up...oil pressure goes down. I tried more oil, less oil etc. Also tried restrictors and lots of other tricks.

When I switched to the 31188 Milodon.....everything just worked. Best wet sump pan I've ever used that will actually fit in a car. The equivalent Moroso is about a 1/4 deeper in the front section and hits steering linkage. The Milodon incorporates a full length kickout at the pan rail to give the oil a place to go...but the best thing is it's a "stepped in" pan. The bottom of the sump is actually smaller so whatever oil gets back to the pan is deeper over the pickup. When I compared them with 4 QT's of oil...it was about 5/8" deeper in the Milodon...which is a LOT of you're only dealing with 3" or so ( I don't remember exact numbers). It also has a nice bolt in windage tray incorporated.

I spent a good afternoon at Reher Morrison and they showed me a stack of oil pans they had tested and designed. Their final design was a very simple one with a trough around the pickup and ultimately Moroso started building it and selling it. They said it was the best they had ever used that would actually fit in a Chevelle or something without too much drama. I haven't looked lately but it's what they installed on all their crate engines as a base.


JIM

 

The stock genuine LS-7 pan with windage tray is the best GM ever used.

There's good power in oil pans and it's always a good investment to improve it.


JIM

 

Getting back to the original question. My original L-82 cast aluminum valve covers came with little splash tabs above every rocker arm. Are they needed or even work I don't have a clue. One of my first mods was going to 1.6 ratio roller tipped rockers and heads with screw in studs 64 cc chambers. They had clearance issues with the L-82 finned cast covers. So I went to taller valve covers. I never had a problem. Upon rebuilding and hot rodding my original block with a .030 over bore I installed a Melling high volume pump... all without issues.

Shunyun, could you explain your setup? I actually used 7/16th ARP studs on my 383's and later 396's and a stud girdle which would be a type of oil deflector.

So just now I looked up my Comp Cams RR's and I don't see a deflector warning. I run a combo of 1.7 and 1.6 on my SBC's

Ultra Pro Magnum™ Roller Rocker Arm: Chevy; 7/16" Stud, 1.7 Ratio - COMP Cams®

 

427 hotrod & Jebbysan
Thanks guys. I have a new original GM BB oil pan and tray for LS-5/LS-6/LS-7 corvettes. I think I will just put a larger dia and braided line on the oil gauge, for quicker response, and keep an eye on the psi at higher rpms. I may be just fine. If the psi drops I will address it at that time. The Milodon pan you suggest will be my plan "B".

Gkull:
The link you provided was for full roller rocker arms.
The OP mentioned ball-n-stud so we assume he is running the Magnum arms
https://www.compcams.com/magnum-roll...2-ratio-1.html
These do come with a spring pressure warning of "less than 350lbs open"
I have seen them gall with much less.
Hence the concern about drippers to keep the ***** from galling.

If he is running true full-roller rocker arms I see no reason for concern, drippers or not, on any valve spring that is streetable.

 

Way back in the days gone by I had a set of stock orange covers that I cut out the top and bent outboard to be able to adjust hot lash on a running engine with flat tappet lifters. I never saw the oil squirting like out of shot needle where it would jump over the whole rocker. It's a pulsing flow as the tappet moves up and down over the oil passage and the tappet has a bleed off rate. So it's just my opinion that the oil is not going to just squirt over the rocker arm because of some high volume pump. The real issue is excessive spring pressure along with higher lift long duration cam shafts. That's why I asked about his setup. heads, springs, cam timing

 

[QUOTE=leigh1322;1607204286]427 hotrod & Jebbysan
Thanks guys. I have a new original GM BB oil pan and tray for LS-5/LS-6/LS-7 corvettes. I think I will just put a larger dia and braided line on the oil gauge, for quicker response, and keep an eye on the psi at higher rpms. I may be just fine. If the psi drops I will address it at that time. The Milodon pan you suggest will be my plan "B".

Double ck it's the real LS-7 pan as it was different.

JIM

 

This is the one I got new from Pace Chevy in'19 before they were discontinued.

So I am not sure if this is the same as the LS-5 oil pan or not. It did kind of look like the one that came out of my car.
Is that going to be good enough for my needs?
The pan has almost a full flat baffle around the oil pump, and a spring loaded door, and there is a matching but even larger windage tray for the main caps, that reaches to the shallow part of the pan.
The shallow part of the pan is so shallow my previous truck 454 rod bolts left scrapes on the old pan itself, just because it had a few dents in it. So the rods are really close to the pan.
Hence my questions.
I have pics if needed.

It looks just like the one in this thread:

 

Not to intend to sidetrack this conversation......but several statements have been made by guys I trust on here, and raises questions that apply to MY problems with my 408 SBC

1. What is NORMAL amount of oil flow to a top end of a performance or stock engine.....should oil be flooding the lower part of the head?
2. Do streams of oil spew out of rocker arms.....or does is just flow out with NO vertical stream?
3. Does it require special and modified oil paths on bottom of heads to allow immediate drainback of oil?
4. Does excess oil in the top end in any way become "oil vapor" that messes up intake tracks through PCV systems?

All who know about my thread, know that these are all questions, .....and real issues to resolve with my engine.

I hope this does not sidetrack this thread,.....and if it does, I apologize to the OP.