I messed around on the highway with a 427 Vette the other day. It was a really clean C3, but until I got home and started looking up info about them, I didn't know too much about them. Supposidly well over 400hp?? I was suprised because from about a 60 - 90mph run I was able to slowly put about a car length on him. I have a basically stock 6spd '00 Trans Am (only Free Ram Air mod). Does this make sense that I could pull? It was a lightish blue color and had a hood scoop with a 427 badge. Looked exactly like this: http://www.surferz.net/~tim/68vette.jpg

Tim

 

This is just my opinion, but yes it seems likely. Newer cars have a more efficent drivetrain than older ones. Meaning less rotating mass. I am not sure of the weight difference in the two cars either. Also your car is a 6 speed with overdrive. His was more than likely a 4 speed, or a 3 speed auto. Makes quite a bit of difference. I also belive that Horse power was determined differently back then. I am not surprised if you were faster. It is depressing to see it happen though. But you have to admit there have been sugnificant changes in technology over the years. A camaro or firebird of that same era would be a better race. But this is all my opinion. You can think what you like of it. One thing most will agree with me on is this... The older Vette will always have more style.

 

The first rule about these cars is that looking up the stock specs will give only a vague idea of their performance about 30% of the time, and no idea whatsoever the rest of the time :). Most of these cars are not stock (the one in your pic isn't), many aren't in peak tune, some are incorrectly badged, etc. Some of the best C3 engines also required higher octane gasoline than is available today, so people retard the timing to get them running properly (reducing power). Also, that 400+ hp figure was measured in gross, which is always higher than today's (1972 on) rating system. So yeah, its reasonable that you pulled on that car.

 

Thats a sweet looking ride.

Agreed though that newer cars have an advantage in this case of over 30 years technology. Im not suprised you pulled on him in the top end. Still sounds like he was hanging in there though :cheers:

They were rated at gross hp. No engine accessories and measured at the fly wheel. So 400hp is not really the case. Just be glad you didn't meet up with an L-88. They have been known to clock 11's in the 1/4. Just depends on how the 427 is setup. I have a buddy that is running a 454 N/A and runs 10's up here in Colorado.

I will include this article but keep in mind that this test was done with 60's era tires. They were crap. :cheers:
http://www.corvettearchive.com/image...R&T427-435.jpg

[Modified by flood, 8:51 AM 4/16/2003]


[Modified by flood, 9:13 AM 4/16/2003]

 

Ok then, I guess it makes sense. We never got any great races or anything. More just messing around, but whenever we were both on it you could tell I was pulling away, thats why I was curious. Thanks for the info.

Tim

 

How do you know if there was real 427 under the hood? It could be a 350 under there too!

 

Fuel injected small blocks are putting out with ease what the old big blocks did. His engines probably due for a rebuild. And I am almost positive your car is lighter than his. What kinds of look did he have on his face? :eek:

 

I don't know for sure, all I now is there was a 427 badge on the hood, so take that for what its worth. I'd be more inclined to think it was fake if it was some half rusted poopiebox, but it wasn't, it was VERY clean, looked show quality to me. I'm not sure what times the 350's ran, but from what it seems, the 427's ran in the 13's @ around 105, which would make sense for how the race turned out. Considering a T/A like mine will run similar times. Hopefully I'll have some track times within a week.

But again, this is why I wouldn't think it was in need of a rebuild or running crappy(again, just speculating). It just looked like one of those cars that only comes out on sunny weekends and is well taken care of.

As for the look on his face... It was more like, after I had goosed him into racing about 10 times from a roll, he just kinda waved his arm at me as if to say "Ok, I'm gonna drive like a normal human now".

Tim

 

As others have said cars back then were rated in gross hp therefore a 390hp 427 L-36 is actually closer to 300 net hp. My 73 454 is only rated at 275 net hp ( a lot more healthy now but you get the point). A 365hp 71 LS-5 is actually only rated at 285 net hp, so stock to stock you will normally have the advantage especially if it's an A/C, Automatic big block which can push a curb weight close to 3800lbs in factory trim so you have a weight advantage. Now if your talking torque its a different story all together, since most of them were pushing close to 400 ft/lbs of net torque or more stock.

:cheers:
Pat Kunz

 

:skep:

 

That's very true. To get rid of the pinging, I had to retard mine back almost to zero initial advance, and that really affected the performance. Now I run it with half & half 93 octane and blue aviation gas, with the timing where it belongs, and I'll bet I could give you a run.

JB

 

The standard 427 was rated at 390 GROSS HP. Net would be down around 300. So that would put you and him very close. Then consider he either had a 3 speed auto or 4-speed manual. Your 6-speed would give you all kinds of advantages in gears. So, yea, sounds about right.

tom...

 

Tim,

I have a GM crate 454 rated at 425hp/500tq (GROSS). I bet it puts out ~300rwhp/400rwtq. I'm guessing based on extensive seat time in lots of different cars at different power levels. I estimate my car runs high-12s, low-13s @ 106-107mph.

Your car makes 320+rwhp I'm sure. Your car is heavier, though.

Still...it doesn't surprise me at all that you pulled him. As others have mentioned the gross HP ratings of these motors makes it hard to really figure accurately compared to the newer cars. Also, there is no doubt you have a gearing advantage, unless he's converted to a 5/6-speed trans. This made a huge difference in my car.

Good luck with your nice car! :)

 

Probably true...........3,300# 35 year old car, no O/D trans., tired motor(?).
Don't mess with mine, though. Different story-
:lol: :chevy :chevy :lol:
A new black Trans Am was on the on-ramp in front of me while we were cruising in the '79 (with the ZZ/502 and Richmond 6 speed Overdrive trans.). We were getting onto the Interstate. He floored it; I gave him about a 1/8 mile lead, and nailed it.
I came up behind him (he was at WOT), snapped the wheel leftward, and accelerated away like he was parked. I looked back for a second, only to see the stunned look on his face.
Priceless...............
:yesnod: :lol: :lol: :yesnod:





[Modified by MassVette, 12:03 PM 4/17/2003]

 

It's guys like you that bug me.. Few years back I had just purchased my car and was driving it home for the first time. It felt great.. Getting lots of looks.. and then some red neck with a Trans Am met me head to head at a light.. I'm going north he's going south... As it changed he rolled by slowly. I thought he was going to say.. nice ride or something.. instead he made some stupid comments and wanted to race.. I know my 190hp isn't the fasted car around but it out classes most cars on the road.. So your newer Trans Am with 6speed computer controlled crap pulled away from a 22year older car. so what? where's the satisfaction.. This guy was enjoying his Vette and you had to ruin it. WHy not take your car to the track and see what you can do against guys looking to race what they own.

 

I would agree with most of the above.

Net vs. Gross horsepower rating
Old technology (significantly less than 1 hp per cubic inch)
higher compression needing higher octane forcing retarded timing
Full steel frame vs unibody (more weight)

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the rear gear ratio

The older cars with three or four speed transmissions had lower rear end ratio's to keep highway rpm's down. That's going to negatively effect the torque needed to get the big old steel frame moving.

I think that's the only real difference that a three or four speed transmission would make. The necessity for a lower rear end ratio. People who race cars in the quarter only use two or three gears. Peak horsepower is going to be in the upper rpm's and your going to wind your engine out to get to that peak, so a six speed with overdrive means little other than a higher top end speed and better gas mileage. I know my 1984 Z28 came with a 3.73 rear end. A 3.73 was not available in my 1979 Vette with four speed manual, so it has a 3.56. Just another handicap unless I modify it.

There's my $0.02

:cheers:

PS If it was a clean show car, it may be completely stock. Meaning no Cam swap, no headers, no upgraded manifold, old tranny, and old rear end. That equals a slow car by todays standards, but it was fast as hell back in the 60's/70's. AND thirty years later, it still looks COOL :cool:


[Modified by 79MakoL82, 10:18 AM 4/17/2003]

 

Easy killer, I don't know where your anger is coming from. I never came on here with any attitude whatsoever, so I don't know why you're being so defensive :confused: . I came on here looking for info and think I did it in a civilized way. Its not like I came on here spouting off about your NON-computer controlled, old technology crap.

I mean this guy was into racing, he didn't have any problems romping on the gas and running it up to close to 100mph, so I don't think I was disturbing his peaceful world as much as you'd like to think. And as for taking it to the track... I plan to as soon as they open it. It was supposed to open 2 weeks ago but the weather hasn't cooperated.

My guess is that you have a superiority complex since you own a 'Vette, and now you are better than every "redneck" in a Trans Am. If you want to buy a sports car and drive slow (as if you had a choice with 190hp ;)) thats your business, but this guy obviously wanted to mess around for a while before going back to normal driving, don't hold that against me.

Tim

P.S. - I have no problem with you buying a sports car and not wanting to race everyone in sight, I'm just giving you a little of your own medicine since you were so hostile. So just take it easy, I like your car. I like my car. I like just about every car listed in everyone's sig. in this thread, so I think we can all get along.

 

I have to agree with GTP4UNME here. I didn't sense an attitude here, just a legitimate question. Hell, against 427 cubic inches of Big Block power, I would expect to lose in a small block 350 any day. He asked a reasonable question and I think for the most part got sensible answers. Yeah, a new car has a few advantages over a 30 year old car that makes up for the displacement. There's the answer.

Happy motoring :D :steering:


[Modified by 79MakoL82, 2:52 PM 4/17/2003]

 

GTP4UNME - First you write:
It just looked like one of those cars that only comes out on sunny weekends and is well taken care of.
As for the look on his face... It was more like, after I had goosed him into racing about 10 times from a roll...

Now you write:
I mean this guy was into racing, he didn't have any problems romping on the gas and running it up to close to 100mph, so I don't think I was disturbing his peaceful world as much as you'd like to think.

:bs
You write: "My guess is that you have a superiority complex since you own a 'Vette, and now you are better than every "redneck" in a Trans Am"

Well.. Yea.. I guess I do feel superior when I drive my vette.. All 190hp.. and you probabbly feel like a redneck when you drive your Trans Am..
:cheers: No argument there.

I just don't like when people feel like they have to race a Vette to prove something. Oh.. he had a 427 on the hood and I was able to pull away.. wow for you.. :rolleyes:

I've read several times on this forum where other Vette owners talked about crushing ricers or being crushed by ricers but that's a vette owner talking about a vette experience. Non vette owners talking about beating vettes on a vette forum shouldn't be allowed.. :D

 

LOL, there's no doubt I goosed him into racing, but he had no problems with it. But yes, after we raced several times he motioned like, "OK, enough is enough", which is fine. If he really had a problem with racing, then he could have pulled into the slow lane and just cruised at 60, you're grasping at straws.

And I NEVER made it sound like I was gloating, I just asked a question. And it wasn't that I was out hunting 'Vettes. It just happened to be a Vette that was along side of me. If it was a Civic with a step ladder wing I would have done the same thing. You just hate me cause I don't own a Corvette :sad: .

As for the Trans Am=Redneck, you're an idiot. I'm sure I could have bought an old 'Vette very easily for much less than the Trans Am cost. So I could have a 'Vette, and still have all that extra money to spend on Skoal, where's your theory then? :D

Tim