C4 E85 conversion possible?
01-27-2006, 12:33 AM
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St. Jude Donor '05-'06
C4 E85 conversion possible?
I read the following article and started wondering what would it take to convert a C4 to run on E85 fuel.Do you think it would help or hurt performance.The article says it costs around $100.Anyone seen anything on this?I know they are making "Flex Fuel" trucks.
Bjorn Carey
LiveScience Staff Writer
LiveScience.com
Thu Jan 26, 3:00 PM ET
Producing a gallon of ethanol gas from corn requires 95 percent less petroleum than producing a gallon from fossil fuels, a new study finds.
This method might also slightly reduce the production of greenhouse gases that speed up global warming, but the results on that point are not certain.
"It is better to use various inputs to grow corn and make ethanol and use that in your cars than it is to use the gasoline and fossil fuels directly," said Daniel Kammen of the University of California, Berkeley.
Ethanol could be even more energy efficient and 95 percent free of greenhouse gas emissions, Kammen said, if produced from woody plants instead of corn.
The study is detailed in the Jan. 27 issue of the journal Science.
Booze it up
Ethanol is produced by bacteria that ferment and break down carbohydrate sugars, such as the starch from corn. Humans have been fine-tuning this process for thousands of years, although mainly to brew alcoholic beverages.
The study refined results from several previous studies by comparing the total energy that goes into making ethanol gas from corn, such as harvesting and refining, and comparing it to the energy needed to produce gasoline from fossil fuels. Kammen's team looked into levels of greenhouse gases produced by both the production and the use of each fuel.
They found inconsistencies and errors in the previous work, which had suggested ethanol gas might not be beneficial.
After correcting the errors—which ranged from incorrect unit conversions to reliance on data from outdated methods more than a century old—the researchers arrived at a very different conclusion: not only does corn-based ethanol gas reduce petroleum use by 95 percent, it also reduces greenhouse gas emissions about 13 percent, although that decrease is within a range of uncertainty for the imprecise data involved.
"Making ethanol from corn is a good thing if you want to offset fossil fuels from overseas," Kammen told LiveScience. "On the greenhouse gas side of things, it is not clear if corn, as grown today, is a good thing. We just don't know yet, but it appears to be a mildly good thing."
A woody solution?
While corn-based ethanol is an improvement over gasoline, ethanol from woody, fibrous plants would pack even more energy. Willow trees, switch grass, farm waste and specially grown crops are all feasible sources.
The main energy components of these plants are cellulose and lignin, which produce more energy per unit—in the form of breaking hydrogen bonds—than the starches from corn.
"It looks to be that you can get just about twice the amount of energy by going the cellulose route, and greenhouse emissions are very small," Kammen said.
Assuming replant rates equal harvests, there is a 95 percent emission reduction from producing cellulosic ethanol over gasoline production in all three production phases—farming, refining, and use.
However, the real benefits of ethanol gas are not yet fully known, Kammen said, and the advantages could be even greater.
Wheels in motion
In the United States, some 5 million of the cars and trucks on the road are "flex-fuel," meaning that they can run either on traditional gasoline or E85, a mix of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.
Converting an automobile to run on flex-fuel costs about $100.
"This is actually one of the cheapest possible transitions you can make," Kammen said. "It cuts the cost of fuel by half at the pump."
However, there are very few pumps offering ethanol fuel. Despite the number of flex-fuel automobiles—California boasts more flex-fuel than diesel vehicles—ethanol-blended fuel accounted for only 2 percent of all fuel sold in the United States in 2004.
While it doesn't yet make sense to convert the entire economy to corn-based ethanol, Kammen said, improved methods for processing corn or using other ethanol-rich materials could drive such a change.
"The people who are saying ethanol is bad are just plain wrong," Kammen said.
Brazil has converted nearly all its cars and gas pumps to run on a 96 percent ethanol fuel produced from sugarcane. Brazilians have already seen the benefits of sugarcane fuel—not only is it cleaner burning, but since it is produced within the country, it is half the price of imported gasoline.
Bjorn Carey
LiveScience Staff Writer
LiveScience.com
Thu Jan 26, 3:00 PM ET
Producing a gallon of ethanol gas from corn requires 95 percent less petroleum than producing a gallon from fossil fuels, a new study finds.
This method might also slightly reduce the production of greenhouse gases that speed up global warming, but the results on that point are not certain.
"It is better to use various inputs to grow corn and make ethanol and use that in your cars than it is to use the gasoline and fossil fuels directly," said Daniel Kammen of the University of California, Berkeley.
Ethanol could be even more energy efficient and 95 percent free of greenhouse gas emissions, Kammen said, if produced from woody plants instead of corn.
The study is detailed in the Jan. 27 issue of the journal Science.
Booze it up
Ethanol is produced by bacteria that ferment and break down carbohydrate sugars, such as the starch from corn. Humans have been fine-tuning this process for thousands of years, although mainly to brew alcoholic beverages.
The study refined results from several previous studies by comparing the total energy that goes into making ethanol gas from corn, such as harvesting and refining, and comparing it to the energy needed to produce gasoline from fossil fuels. Kammen's team looked into levels of greenhouse gases produced by both the production and the use of each fuel.
They found inconsistencies and errors in the previous work, which had suggested ethanol gas might not be beneficial.
After correcting the errors—which ranged from incorrect unit conversions to reliance on data from outdated methods more than a century old—the researchers arrived at a very different conclusion: not only does corn-based ethanol gas reduce petroleum use by 95 percent, it also reduces greenhouse gas emissions about 13 percent, although that decrease is within a range of uncertainty for the imprecise data involved.
"Making ethanol from corn is a good thing if you want to offset fossil fuels from overseas," Kammen told LiveScience. "On the greenhouse gas side of things, it is not clear if corn, as grown today, is a good thing. We just don't know yet, but it appears to be a mildly good thing."
A woody solution?
While corn-based ethanol is an improvement over gasoline, ethanol from woody, fibrous plants would pack even more energy. Willow trees, switch grass, farm waste and specially grown crops are all feasible sources.
The main energy components of these plants are cellulose and lignin, which produce more energy per unit—in the form of breaking hydrogen bonds—than the starches from corn.
"It looks to be that you can get just about twice the amount of energy by going the cellulose route, and greenhouse emissions are very small," Kammen said.
Assuming replant rates equal harvests, there is a 95 percent emission reduction from producing cellulosic ethanol over gasoline production in all three production phases—farming, refining, and use.
However, the real benefits of ethanol gas are not yet fully known, Kammen said, and the advantages could be even greater.
Wheels in motion
In the United States, some 5 million of the cars and trucks on the road are "flex-fuel," meaning that they can run either on traditional gasoline or E85, a mix of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.
Converting an automobile to run on flex-fuel costs about $100.
"This is actually one of the cheapest possible transitions you can make," Kammen said. "It cuts the cost of fuel by half at the pump."
However, there are very few pumps offering ethanol fuel. Despite the number of flex-fuel automobiles—California boasts more flex-fuel than diesel vehicles—ethanol-blended fuel accounted for only 2 percent of all fuel sold in the United States in 2004.
While it doesn't yet make sense to convert the entire economy to corn-based ethanol, Kammen said, improved methods for processing corn or using other ethanol-rich materials could drive such a change.
"The people who are saying ethanol is bad are just plain wrong," Kammen said.
Brazil has converted nearly all its cars and gas pumps to run on a 96 percent ethanol fuel produced from sugarcane. Brazilians have already seen the benefits of sugarcane fuel—not only is it cleaner burning, but since it is produced within the country, it is half the price of imported gasoline.
Last edited by Redeasysport; 01-27-2006 at 12:36 AM.
01-27-2006, 07:46 AM
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I bet you wouldn't have problems passing emissions even if your cat was gutted. Ethanol burns a LOT cleaner than gasoline. Probably has a higher octane rating as well. I'd think you'd get less miles on your tank though...
01-27-2006, 08:58 AM
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St. Jude Donor '06-'09-'10-'11
Around here you only save .15 cents a gallon running E85. I heard that your mileage also drops, so .15 savings is not worth it since you are consuming more E85. Something about BTU's not being as high as gas.
01-27-2006, 07:28 PM
#4
Drifting
E85 require about 30% more fuel volume for the same amount of air.
You will get about the same power.
The fuel comsumption will increase about 10% to 15%.
You get major benefits from E85 on a boosted engine.
The ethanol will cool the air much more then gasoline.
Ethanol has higher octane.
With these two combined you can run a lot more boost before you start to have problems with spark knock ... That is where you get the extra power.
If you have a bit high compression and want to add a supercharger ... then you can really benefit from E85.
You will get about the same power.
The fuel comsumption will increase about 10% to 15%.
You get major benefits from E85 on a boosted engine.
The ethanol will cool the air much more then gasoline.
Ethanol has higher octane.
With these two combined you can run a lot more boost before you start to have problems with spark knock ... That is where you get the extra power.
If you have a bit high compression and want to add a supercharger ... then you can really benefit from E85.
01-27-2006, 07:36 PM
#5
Originally Posted by JoBy
E85 require about 30% more fuel volume for the same amount of air.
You will get about the same power.
The fuel comsumption will increase about 10% to 15%.
You get major benefits from E85 on a boosted engine.
The ethanol will cool the air much more then gasoline.
Ethanol has higher octane.
With these two combined you can run a lot more boost before you start to have problems with spark knock ... That is where you get the extra power.
If you have a bit high compression and want to add a supercharger ... then you can really benefit from E85.
You will get about the same power.
The fuel comsumption will increase about 10% to 15%.
You get major benefits from E85 on a boosted engine.
The ethanol will cool the air much more then gasoline.
Ethanol has higher octane.
With these two combined you can run a lot more boost before you start to have problems with spark knock ... That is where you get the extra power.
If you have a bit high compression and want to add a supercharger ... then you can really benefit from E85.
I've got an 03 Suburban that can use E85. I got 10 mpg on E85 and 13.4 on 87 Unleaded. The Octane rating is over a hundred, but putting E85 in a fuel system seasoned on gasoline is going to dislodge a boatload of gum and gook from anywhere the gasolline goes. I went through a clogged fuel filter and burned up fuel pump. Thank God it was a warranty repair. I don't think GM quite had its Ethanol act together in 2003. 
Last edited by hardlight; 02-11-2006 at 09:57 PM.
01-27-2006, 10:35 PM
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St. Jude Donor '10
I read the topic wrong. For a minute there, I thought you were going to convert your `vette into an F85, which if I remember right was an old Oldsmobile. Now that would have been interesting. 
01-28-2006, 02:17 AM
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Back in '81 I stopped into a station in rural Indiana that was selling/pumping ethanol and saw the octane rating, heard all the good stuff, and said "sure, fill er up"
got about six blocks and stopped dead in the road..........
Not only will the stuff clean all the varnish out of the tank and plug the fuel filter but it will also take the protective coating off the inside of the tank and thereby faciltate "rust".
But after you get the fuel filter replaced and pump, if required, you may loose your needle and seat, if carburated or clog your injectors very quickly.
point is that, that stuff, while very nice for the environment, keeps the farmers employed, helps the national ecconomy, I'm sure, is extremely corrosive to the internals of most car fuel delivery systems.
I haven't bought any since and would be very, very, nervous of trying it again
01-28-2006, 07:19 AM
#8
Drifting
Ethanol is not very corrosive, Methanol is. Big differace.
Ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline.
Ethanol is generally less agressive to materials than gasoline.
Take two plastic cups. One with vodka, and on with gasoline.
I bet the gasoline one will leak first.
Yes, the ethanol will solve a lot of old gum and gook in the fuel system.
Most gasloine already have 5-10% ethanol content.
I have run my winter beater for over 2 years on a ethanol mix now. About 75% E85 and the rest gasoline. I have only raised the fuel pressure as much as the pump could handle. If I run all ethanol then the engine will run too lean.
I am going to run my Corvette on 100% E85 this summer.
Two friends on mine has run their IROC Camaros ( 1986 and 1987 ) on 100% E85 for two tears now.
Going from 100% gas to 100% E85 is not good if you just want to try it out. They will mix at any rate. Try something like 20% E85 for a couple of tanks. If all is well then you can increase tre ethanol content.
Most cars can take 30%-50% ethanol without changing anything if the ECM get some time to re-learn from the O2 sensor.
With E85 fuel hoses and such will age sooner, but a 'gas' fuel hose will still work for years. Testing is not a problem. If you want to convert permanently, then you should consider replacing hoses in the fuel system.
Ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline.
Ethanol is generally less agressive to materials than gasoline.
Take two plastic cups. One with vodka, and on with gasoline.
I bet the gasoline one will leak first.
Yes, the ethanol will solve a lot of old gum and gook in the fuel system.
Most gasloine already have 5-10% ethanol content.
I have run my winter beater for over 2 years on a ethanol mix now. About 75% E85 and the rest gasoline. I have only raised the fuel pressure as much as the pump could handle. If I run all ethanol then the engine will run too lean.
I am going to run my Corvette on 100% E85 this summer.
Two friends on mine has run their IROC Camaros ( 1986 and 1987 ) on 100% E85 for two tears now.
Going from 100% gas to 100% E85 is not good if you just want to try it out. They will mix at any rate. Try something like 20% E85 for a couple of tanks. If all is well then you can increase tre ethanol content.
Most cars can take 30%-50% ethanol without changing anything if the ECM get some time to re-learn from the O2 sensor.
With E85 fuel hoses and such will age sooner, but a 'gas' fuel hose will still work for years. Testing is not a problem. If you want to convert permanently, then you should consider replacing hoses in the fuel system.
Last edited by JoBy; 01-28-2006 at 07:22 AM.
02-10-2006, 10:44 PM
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Check out this ethanol fueled tow vehicle
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/tech...omotive/21942/
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/tech...omotive/21942/
General Motors has chosen the 2007 Chevrolet Avalanche SUV to begin its push for the technology known as "Flex-Fuel" in the North American consumer market.
Flex-fuel cars are capable of running either on gasoline or ethanol, at either 100 percent of one of the fuels or any proportion between the two. However, with E85 -- the commercial name of ethanol, a formula that contains 85 percent of the alcohol and 15 percent gasoline -- engines emit less greenhouse gases although mileage per gallon is reduced. E85-compatible vehicles had previously been sold mostly to fleets in the U.S.
GM has already built over 1.5 million flex-fuel vehicles, most of them sold in the Brazilian market where sugarcane ethanol has powered a significant portion of the country's fleet since the 1970's oil crisis, although it wasn't until 2003 that the flex technology -- meaning the same engine being able to use either fuel -- entered mass production. Flex cars are also popular in Sweden, and several other manufacturers, including Ford and Volkswagen, also market the technology.
Also featuring cylinder deactivation to further improve fuel economy, the new 2007 Chevy Avalanche will be officially launched at this month’s Chicago Auto Show.
Flex-fuel cars are capable of running either on gasoline or ethanol, at either 100 percent of one of the fuels or any proportion between the two. However, with E85 -- the commercial name of ethanol, a formula that contains 85 percent of the alcohol and 15 percent gasoline -- engines emit less greenhouse gases although mileage per gallon is reduced. E85-compatible vehicles had previously been sold mostly to fleets in the U.S.
GM has already built over 1.5 million flex-fuel vehicles, most of them sold in the Brazilian market where sugarcane ethanol has powered a significant portion of the country's fleet since the 1970's oil crisis, although it wasn't until 2003 that the flex technology -- meaning the same engine being able to use either fuel -- entered mass production. Flex cars are also popular in Sweden, and several other manufacturers, including Ford and Volkswagen, also market the technology.
Also featuring cylinder deactivation to further improve fuel economy, the new 2007 Chevy Avalanche will be officially launched at this month’s Chicago Auto Show.
02-12-2006, 12:04 PM
#12
Team Owner
What about converting it to run on Bio-diesel? I'm not saying I would cause it wouldnt be a true Vette anymore, but i'm interested. It would be cheaper and get a much higher mpg.
02-12-2006, 01:38 PM
#13
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St. Jude Donor '05-'06
Originally Posted by 4Ever21
What about converting it to run on Bio-diesel? I'm not saying I would cause it wouldnt be a true Vette anymore, but i'm interested. It would be cheaper and get a much higher mpg.
You would have to put a diesel engine in it but why?My concern is a way to keep the engine relatively stock and be able to run it for the most cost effective solution in the year 2010.
02-14-2006, 12:23 AM
#15
Drifting
Interesting stuff,
If it becomes more maintstream, I'll convert all my vehicles. I'll do anything to stick it to the middle east oil cartel. Screw them.
If it becomes more maintstream, I'll convert all my vehicles. I'll do anything to stick it to the middle east oil cartel. Screw them.
02-14-2006, 01:16 AM
#16
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Paul G
Even if mileage is less OPEC does'nt get as much of our money. That in itself is worth it.
02-14-2006, 01:40 AM
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Unless oil tycoons start buying ethanol farms for fuel sales purposes...
Oh wait, that's like 20 years later.
By then, we should have the technology to run on hydrogen or other alternate fuels. To the billion dollar oil business, up yours with my hand full of Vaseline!! I'm not gonna pay $8.90 per gallon for gas!
Oh wait, that's like 20 years later.
By then, we should have the technology to run on hydrogen or other alternate fuels. To the billion dollar oil business, up yours with my hand full of Vaseline!! I'm not gonna pay $8.90 per gallon for gas!
02-14-2006, 01:23 PM
#18
Team Owner
let oil tycoons by farms. It will still do wonders for American agrabuisness.
And think about this - smaller nations overseas that could not compete in the oil industry could compete, perhaps on a smaller scale, in the E85 industry.
I still see E85 as being a real winner.
Oh, the upside to adding 15% gas? It add colour and odor, aides in cold starting and makes for a visable flame.
And think about this - smaller nations overseas that could not compete in the oil industry could compete, perhaps on a smaller scale, in the E85 industry.
I still see E85 as being a real winner.
Oh, the upside to adding 15% gas? It add colour and odor, aides in cold starting and makes for a visable flame.
02-14-2006, 07:38 PM
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St. Jude Donor '05-'06
Originally Posted by bogus
Oh, the upside to adding 15% gas? It add colour and odor, aides in cold starting and makes for a visable flame.
12-18-2018, 11:31 AM
#20
Excuseme that is an old post, though i havent got: is c4 ready to run with e85 from stock map, or needs it some mods?
someone said already ran with indiana's ethanol and got some trouble... What car?
someone said already ran with indiana's ethanol and got some trouble... What car?
Last edited by Christi@n; 12-18-2018 at 11:34 AM.