One piece or "solid" flywheel
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 33
From: Charlotte Michigan
I am in the process of putting in another engine in my '93 with another '93 stock engine. the engine I bought did not have a flywheel with it, am I going to have problems putting my old one on this new engine as I don't know how it was balanced, or will a new balanced solid flywheel work?
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 12
Interesting...Yours is in definate contrast to experience of others. (Things that make you go "Hmmmm....." 
)
Actually according to my research chatter is quite common when using a new findanza aluminum flywheel so I dont think mine contrasts anyone who has used the D/f set up with the Aluminum flywheel. Do a quick google search. There are hundreds of people who have had the same issue.,
When you said "pucks" I realized you're using one of those extra special grippy discs. In contrast, the Centerforce 381039 disc I/we use is a flat, sprung hub type and it works with the stock Veleo pressure plate AND the Fidanza, apparently.
Yes pucks...I.E. The clutch plate is not one solid piece but broke up in several segments. One side of the C/F is a solid composite plate and the other is a harder puck style. My clutch used with the findanza is below.
http://www.centerforce.com/products/...-crate-engines
Never had a moments problem with the Fidanza/Centerforce 381039 (sprung hub) disc/Veleo combo. (And there's a bunch of 'em running around in FBI land running north of 500 hp.) However! When you mentioned "pucks", the ONLY chatter problem one of us was having was with a single mass steel FW (not a Fidanza) and one of those "puck" type discs. Now you have me wondering if the maybe it is your disc too that is at the root of the chattering??
I dont believe so considering there seems to be several Issues from several sources using the D/f centerforce and findanza aluminum flywheel.
I dunno - just making an observation. I do know his was a pain to drive around town, as I recall. The ultimate cure to smooth operation w/o slipping was a dual disc RAM clutch conversion. The kit was built by RAM with the input from some ZR-1 guys, and the comment was made that "...for under 600 hp, it would be the last clutch you'll ever buy."
Getting off track a bit, but maybe worth looking into; a dual disc, whether it is made by RAM or CENTERFORCE or whomever might be the solution for your big hp application.
)Actually according to my research chatter is quite common when using a new findanza aluminum flywheel so I dont think mine contrasts anyone who has used the D/f set up with the Aluminum flywheel. Do a quick google search. There are hundreds of people who have had the same issue.,
When you said "pucks" I realized you're using one of those extra special grippy discs. In contrast, the Centerforce 381039 disc I/we use is a flat, sprung hub type and it works with the stock Veleo pressure plate AND the Fidanza, apparently.
Yes pucks...I.E. The clutch plate is not one solid piece but broke up in several segments. One side of the C/F is a solid composite plate and the other is a harder puck style. My clutch used with the findanza is below.
http://www.centerforce.com/products/...-crate-engines
A word of caution tho, when it comes to break-in: 500 miles worth of normal driving is what was recommended if using or reusing the Veleo, due to the fact the PP is dished ever so slightly. If one hammers the new disc before it has a chance to take shape, the outer edges will be cooked and a new disc is the only fix (I'm told).
Never had a moments problem with the Fidanza/Centerforce 381039 (sprung hub) disc/Veleo combo. (And there's a bunch of 'em running around in FBI land running north of 500 hp.) However! When you mentioned "pucks", the ONLY chatter problem one of us was having was with a single mass steel FW (not a Fidanza) and one of those "puck" type discs. Now you have me wondering if the maybe it is your disc too that is at the root of the chattering??
I dont believe so considering there seems to be several Issues from several sources using the D/f centerforce and findanza aluminum flywheel.
I dunno - just making an observation. I do know his was a pain to drive around town, as I recall. The ultimate cure to smooth operation w/o slipping was a dual disc RAM clutch conversion. The kit was built by RAM with the input from some ZR-1 guys, and the comment was made that "...for under 600 hp, it would be the last clutch you'll ever buy."
Getting off track a bit, but maybe worth looking into; a dual disc, whether it is made by RAM or CENTERFORCE or whomever might be the solution for your big hp application.
Here is my original pos from when I first intalled the clutch in my car. The chatter was so bad for the first 500 miles it was hard to bare. Now it has lightened up but as I said I do get some slip under hard acceleration. The clutch is rated for around 500 hp and I am over that but I didnt think it would cause these issues nor did I think it would slip this fast. When it goes out I will be going back to a single mass steel flywheel and a spec clutch.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...atter-bad.html
Last edited by smooth1990; Nov 6, 2013 at 09:51 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,394
Likes: 2,741
OK - your transmission is a ZF S6-40 Corvette transmission. It's been serviced by Rockland Standard Gear/RSGear. They're the only ZF S6-40 "certified source" of parts in the US I believe. The BOM# on your trans tag could be ID'd by them as to the content. The tag above indicates the case and the number looks to have been "touched up" indicates it's an 089 which would be a '95 or '96 base 540Nm transmission. Their -089 spec I'd say verifies that.
I've bought from them many, many years. They were and are still a premier manual transmission and transfer case parts source. I've no recent history with them. They're really big on their "Tranzilla" and their fluids.
http://www.rsgear.com/
I've bought from them many, many years. They were and are still a premier manual transmission and transfer case parts source. I've no recent history with them. They're really big on their "Tranzilla" and their fluids.
http://www.rsgear.com/
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 284
Likes: 4
Just throwing this out there, what is the likely hood that the car has a broken crank? The last lt engine I had a mystery vibration, it turned out to be a broke crank. I really hope that is not the case on this car.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 508
From: South-central Missouri
Here is my original pos from when I first intalled the clutch in my car. The chatter was so bad for the first 500 miles it was hard to bare. Now it has lightened up but as I said I do get some slip under hard acceleration. The clutch is rated for around 500 hp and I am over that but I didnt think it would cause these issues nor did I think it would slip this fast. When it goes out I will be going back to a single mass steel flywheel and a spec clutch.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...atter-bad.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...atter-bad.html
I don't have to read internet to find contrasting experiences regarding the success of the Fidanza FW. I have first-hand experience, and that of half dozen people on my Android phone list. And, one of the busiest ZR-1 specialist in the country recommends them and has installed many. He's not a Fidanza rep and he is very conservative when it comes to recommending anything as it reflects directly on his credibility and on his one-man shop.
The attraction of the aluminum FW (for me) is the huge reduction of rotating mass. The DM stock FW weighs in around 43#, whereas the Fidanza is 13#. And, even in 4th gear (on a inertia dyno) the effective difference measures 15 hp: much higher in lower gears with higher rates of rotational acceleration; maybe double? I don't know what the dyno number is in first gear, but it makes a significant difference in first gear (especially), where the 315x35x17 (GY D3s) rear tires will break loose on the street almost at will w/o involving the clutch!
So, between your experiences with the D/f disc as it relates to using the Fidanza, and the opposite experiences that I'm personally familiar with, I'd say something is causing it that might be one or a combination of things causing the problem. And, because of the "free horsepower" (torque, actually) the aluminum FW unleashes, I personally wouldn't want to dismiss the Fidanza out of hand.
Your mileage may vary!
Just sayin.P.
Last edited by Paul Workman; Nov 6, 2013 at 11:58 AM.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
Likes: 3
From: Iowa
If the crankshaft is in 2 pieces an engine won't run (at least, start back up...). I'll give my experiences with the Fidanza aluminum flywheel and Centerforce DF clutch.
I experience a lot of rattle at idle in neutral, and under light loads in gear. I do not/have not ever experienced any type of chatter or slippage. With that being said, the car is not my performance car, just a nice one to drive. I've been WOT twice since I've owned it. Just my .02
I experience a lot of rattle at idle in neutral, and under light loads in gear. I do not/have not ever experienced any type of chatter or slippage. With that being said, the car is not my performance car, just a nice one to drive. I've been WOT twice since I've owned it. Just my .02
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,284
Likes: 3
From: Murphy NC
Scientifically speaking, there's insufficient evidence to draw a hard conclusion, as to whether the D/F disc OR the Fidanza FW's replaceable friction plate (screws - was someone's guess; maybe...maybe not) or a combination thereof is at fault. But, I agree that if I was going to use such a D/f disc, I'd shy away from the only other common component in the issue - the Fidanza, at least until the apparent problem's root cause was identified and corrected; whatever that may be.
I don't have to read internet to find contrasting experiences regarding the success of the Fidanza FW. I have first-hand experience, and that of half dozen people on my Android phone list. And, one of the busiest ZR-1 specialist in the country recommends them and has installed many. He's not a Fidanza rep and he is very conservative when it comes to recommending anything as it reflects directly on his credibility and on his one-man shop.
The attraction of the aluminum FW (for me) is the huge reduction of rotating mass; the DM stock weighs in around 43#, whereas the Fidanza is 13#. And, even in 4th gear (on a inertia dyno) the effective difference measures 15 hp; and would increase in proportion with the rate of acceleration - especially in 1st and 2nd gear where it might (I haven't done the math) be double+ 15 (effective) hp in 1st. I don't know what the dyno number is in first gear, but it makes a significant difference in first gear (especially), where the 315x35x17 (GY D3s) rear tires will break loose on the street almost at will w/o involving the clutch!
So, between your experiences with the D/f disc as it relates to using the Fidanza, and that I'm personally familiar with, I'd say something is causing it that might be one or a combination of things causing the problem. And, because of the "free horsepower" (torque, actually) the aluminum FW unleashes, I personally wouldn't want to dismiss the Fidanza out of hand.
Your mileage may vary! Just sayin.
P.
I don't have to read internet to find contrasting experiences regarding the success of the Fidanza FW. I have first-hand experience, and that of half dozen people on my Android phone list. And, one of the busiest ZR-1 specialist in the country recommends them and has installed many. He's not a Fidanza rep and he is very conservative when it comes to recommending anything as it reflects directly on his credibility and on his one-man shop.
The attraction of the aluminum FW (for me) is the huge reduction of rotating mass; the DM stock weighs in around 43#, whereas the Fidanza is 13#. And, even in 4th gear (on a inertia dyno) the effective difference measures 15 hp; and would increase in proportion with the rate of acceleration - especially in 1st and 2nd gear where it might (I haven't done the math) be double+ 15 (effective) hp in 1st. I don't know what the dyno number is in first gear, but it makes a significant difference in first gear (especially), where the 315x35x17 (GY D3s) rear tires will break loose on the street almost at will w/o involving the clutch!
So, between your experiences with the D/f disc as it relates to using the Fidanza, and that I'm personally familiar with, I'd say something is causing it that might be one or a combination of things causing the problem. And, because of the "free horsepower" (torque, actually) the aluminum FW unleashes, I personally wouldn't want to dismiss the Fidanza out of hand.
Your mileage may vary!
Just sayin.P.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 12
Scientifically speaking, there's insufficient evidence to draw a hard conclusion, as to whether the D/F disc OR the Fidanza FW's replaceable friction plate (screws - was someone's guess; maybe...maybe not) or a combination thereof is at fault. But, I agree that if I was going to use such a D/f disc, I'd shy away from the only other common component in the issue - the Fidanza, at least until the apparent problem's root cause was identified and corrected; whatever that may be.
I don't have to read internet to find contrasting experiences regarding the success of the Fidanza FW. I have first-hand experience, and that of half dozen people on my Android phone list. And, one of the busiest ZR-1 specialist in the country recommends them and has installed many. He's not a Fidanza rep and he is very conservative when it comes to recommending anything as it reflects directly on his credibility and on his one-man shop.
The attraction of the aluminum FW (for me) is the huge reduction of rotating mass. The DM stock FW weighs in around 43#, whereas the Fidanza is 13#. And, even in 4th gear (on a inertia dyno) the effective difference measures 15 hp: much higher in lower gears with higher rates of rotational acceleration; maybe double? I don't know what the dyno number is in first gear, but it makes a significant difference in first gear (especially), where the 315x35x17 (GY D3s) rear tires will break loose on the street almost at will w/o involving the clutch!
So, between your experiences with the D/f disc as it relates to using the Fidanza, and the opposite experiences that I'm personally familiar with, I'd say something is causing it that might be one or a combination of things causing the problem. And, because of the "free horsepower" (torque, actually) the aluminum FW unleashes, I personally wouldn't want to dismiss the Fidanza out of hand.
Your mileage may vary! Just sayin.
P.
I don't have to read internet to find contrasting experiences regarding the success of the Fidanza FW. I have first-hand experience, and that of half dozen people on my Android phone list. And, one of the busiest ZR-1 specialist in the country recommends them and has installed many. He's not a Fidanza rep and he is very conservative when it comes to recommending anything as it reflects directly on his credibility and on his one-man shop.
The attraction of the aluminum FW (for me) is the huge reduction of rotating mass. The DM stock FW weighs in around 43#, whereas the Fidanza is 13#. And, even in 4th gear (on a inertia dyno) the effective difference measures 15 hp: much higher in lower gears with higher rates of rotational acceleration; maybe double? I don't know what the dyno number is in first gear, but it makes a significant difference in first gear (especially), where the 315x35x17 (GY D3s) rear tires will break loose on the street almost at will w/o involving the clutch!
So, between your experiences with the D/f disc as it relates to using the Fidanza, and the opposite experiences that I'm personally familiar with, I'd say something is causing it that might be one or a combination of things causing the problem. And, because of the "free horsepower" (torque, actually) the aluminum FW unleashes, I personally wouldn't want to dismiss the Fidanza out of hand.
Your mileage may vary!
Just sayin.P.
You are right, There is no scientific evidence in my case that the aluminum flywheel is the root cause to the chatter in my car. I can say that I personally have very strong feelings that it is the cause because out of all my research regarding the matter (yes I use the internet as a tool) I didnt find any cases where the centerforce D/f clutch had any chatter issues when matched with a steel flywheel.
I did however find more than I can count on my fingers and toes where people have the same set up as mine and have the same dang issues. So maybe out of the 5 or 6 people you know and have personal phone numbers for lol
that have relatively close setups in their car using the fidanza didnt have the problem does not mean that it isnt a issue with a portion of the fidanza users weather it be the majority or a small few. Maybe as a previous poster said, it had to do with a PUCK style plate. I do not know and wont know until I pull mine out after it fails.I do agree tho that the Fidanza is obvioulsy lighter and less rotating mass equals more horsepower and a much faster reving engine.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 508
From: South-central Missouri
Are you sure you are not a REP for fidanza?
You are right, There is no scientific evidence in my case that the aluminum flywheel is the root cause to the chatter in my car. I can say that I personally have very strong feelings that it is the cause because out of all my research regarding the matter (yes I use the internet as a tool) I didnt find any cases where the centerforce D/f clutch had any chatter issues when matched with a steel flywheel.
I did however find more than I can count on my fingers and toes where people have the same set up as mine and have the same dang issues. So maybe out of the 5 or 6 people you know and have personal phone numbers for lol that have relatively close setups in their car using the fidanza didnt have the problem does not mean that it isnt a issue with a portion of the fidanza users weather it be the majority or a small few. Maybe as a previous poster said, it had to do with a PUCK style plate. I do not know and wont know until I pull mine out after it fails.
I do agree tho that the Fidanza is obvioulsy lighter and less rotating mass equals more horsepower and a much faster reving engine.
You are right, There is no scientific evidence in my case that the aluminum flywheel is the root cause to the chatter in my car. I can say that I personally have very strong feelings that it is the cause because out of all my research regarding the matter (yes I use the internet as a tool) I didnt find any cases where the centerforce D/f clutch had any chatter issues when matched with a steel flywheel.
I did however find more than I can count on my fingers and toes where people have the same set up as mine and have the same dang issues. So maybe out of the 5 or 6 people you know and have personal phone numbers for lol
that have relatively close setups in their car using the fidanza didnt have the problem does not mean that it isnt a issue with a portion of the fidanza users weather it be the majority or a small few. Maybe as a previous poster said, it had to do with a PUCK style plate. I do not know and wont know until I pull mine out after it fails.I do agree tho that the Fidanza is obvioulsy lighter and less rotating mass equals more horsepower and a much faster reving engine.
And, no... I have no interest in Fidanza, other than I have recommended them to friends and others, and since there is an issue with at least some applications, I'd be curious to exactly what is going on, and what is it about the D/f - Fidanza that is apparently causing a problem - before recommending either the D/f or Fidanza. Knowwhaddimean??
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 508
From: South-central Missouri
The DM was an OE solution to the lash-rattle common in manual transmissions (the ZF especially) due to crankshaft impulses, and to improve drivability. If you go to a single mass FW, be sure to use a sprung hub disc.
Talk to Jim Jandik @ Powertorque.com
OR
RAM clutches and tell them the ZR-1 Registry sent ya.
Talk to Jim Jandik @ Powertorque.com
OR
RAM clutches and tell them the ZR-1 Registry sent ya.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,284
Likes: 3
From: Murphy NC
The DM was an OE solution to the lash-rattle common in manual transmissions (the ZF especially) due to crankshaft impulses, and to improve drivability. If you go to a single mass FW, be sure to use a sprung hub disc.
Talk to Jim Jandik @ Powertorque.com
OR
RAM clutches and tell them the ZR-1 Registry sent ya.
Talk to Jim Jandik @ Powertorque.com
OR
RAM clutches and tell them the ZR-1 Registry sent ya.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,394
Likes: 2,741
Your original post was regarding "ditching the dual mass" and NOT the "violent vibration". Perhaps your issue could be at the "other end" of the crankshaft and maybe the entire build is suspect. You mentioned you bought it this way it seems. You've mentioned nothing about "the build" and you've removed what are normally NOT parts that create issues when properly selected when the build is planned.
Do you know whose build the engine is? What is the engine build? What's on the other end for a balancer? That could maybe give you a hint as to what should be on the flywheel end of the crankshaft.
You assumed and tore it apart and I'd say the consensus from the parts images that you've displayed is "maybe" a sprung disc should have been chosen but that doesn't have anything to do with the violent shake.
I'd say you need to start from scratch and investigate the build.
Last edited by WVZR-1; Nov 7, 2013 at 07:41 AM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 284
Likes: 4
The DM was an OE solution to the lash-rattle common in manual transmissions (the ZF especially) due to crankshaft impulses, and to improve drivability. If you go to a single mass FW, be sure to use a sprung hub disc.
Talk to Jim Jandik @ Powertorque.com
OR
RAM clutches and tell them the ZR-1 Registry sent ya.
Talk to Jim Jandik @ Powertorque.com
OR
RAM clutches and tell them the ZR-1 Registry sent ya.
Thank you.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 284
Likes: 4
Vibration is noticed while driving it and being hard on the car. Sadly, the car is completely stock, down to the paper air filter. It looks to me like a patched up, bunch of junk. Replacing the whole assembly.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 284
Likes: 4
Perhaps your original post has "hung you out" somewhat!
Your original post was regarding "ditching the dual mass" and NOT the "violent vibration". Perhaps your issue could be at the "other end" of the crankshaft and maybe the entire build is suspect. You mentioned you bought it this way it seems. You've mentioned nothing about "the build" and you've removed what are normally NOT parts that create issues when properly selected when the build is planned.
Do you know whose build the engine is? What is the engine build? What's on the other end for a balancer? That could maybe give you a hint as to what should be on the flywheel end of the crankshaft.
You assumed and tore it apart and I'd say the consensus from the parts images that you've displayed is "maybe" a sprung disc should have been chosen but that doesn't have anything to do with the violent shake.
I'd say you need to start from scratch and investigate the build.
Your original post was regarding "ditching the dual mass" and NOT the "violent vibration". Perhaps your issue could be at the "other end" of the crankshaft and maybe the entire build is suspect. You mentioned you bought it this way it seems. You've mentioned nothing about "the build" and you've removed what are normally NOT parts that create issues when properly selected when the build is planned.
Do you know whose build the engine is? What is the engine build? What's on the other end for a balancer? That could maybe give you a hint as to what should be on the flywheel end of the crankshaft.
You assumed and tore it apart and I'd say the consensus from the parts images that you've displayed is "maybe" a sprung disc should have been chosen but that doesn't have anything to do with the violent shake.
I'd say you need to start from scratch and investigate the build.