Ski Down It vs PCMFORLESS
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 27,897
Likes: 9
From: I have no tolerence for liberals and fools, but sometimes i repeat myself
CI 3-5-7-8-9 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08
its threads like this that motivated me to buy a FAST system, now just to get my azz out there and install it.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 1
From: Geneseo Illinois
St. Jude Donor '06
Interesting thread. I wish I knew how to program chips, but I don't, and it will take me much time to figure out. I've communicated with both Alvin and Jesse. I would feel comfortable sending my chip to either vendor for the initial set up on my 383 upgrade. Seems most useful to then get to a dyno for testing and fine tuning. Both Alvin and Jesse have been responsive to my questions, before I have paid them anything. I also concur that Jesse is an enormous resource on this forum and has a lot of experience modifying and racing vettes. I decided to send my chip to Jesse several weeks ago and what I have read here, while very informative, has not changed my opinion.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Originally Posted by 93 ragtop
Jesse, You and I have been back and forth on this tuning issue in the past. I consistantly ran quicker and faster with a generic Fastchip stage 2 then I did with your tune to the advrage of .1 second and 1-2 mph in the 1/8. My blms were in the 108 range and you kept telling me there is something wrong with my car. All of this has already been relayed to you. Your answer is I have something else wrong with the car. I dont believe that fuel pressure needs to be adjusted to get a proper tune. The timing is not field adjustable on a LT1.
I dont know what software you use to tune but I do know that tunercat does not show any changes in the VE tables which is were a big part of the speed density cars need help after a cam change.
Again I paid an extra $45.00 for a second chip for emissions testing and it reads identical to your performance chip.
Jesse, from the very beginnnng we had problems such as you leaving the rev. limiter set at 5800 rpm on a car with reworked heads, hotcam and headers. I sent it back to get that corrected and you didnt and also you raised the fans on temp. back to the stock setting. At this time I told you the emissions chip would not even start the car and so I returned everything to you telling you to remove the rev limiter and I would use the MSD6al to control the revs. On this third attempt you did get the rev limiter removed and you set the fans back to the proper setting for a 160 t-stat.
Jesse, my complaint with you is the tune is nowere close to what it should be. I paid for a emissions chip which is no different then the performance chip. I have close to $400.00 in this. 250 for initial tune, 10 shipping, 45 for the emissions tune, 55 for the chip adapter and paying for shipping both ways at least 2 additional times.
Every tuner I have spoke to tells me that there has to be changes made in the tables exspecially with the VE tables. You did none of these.
It is my opinion that you just dont understand or have the ability to tune a speed density car and I feel it is my obligation to warn other forum members.
I dont know what software you use to tune but I do know that tunercat does not show any changes in the VE tables which is were a big part of the speed density cars need help after a cam change.
Again I paid an extra $45.00 for a second chip for emissions testing and it reads identical to your performance chip.
Jesse, from the very beginnnng we had problems such as you leaving the rev. limiter set at 5800 rpm on a car with reworked heads, hotcam and headers. I sent it back to get that corrected and you didnt and also you raised the fans on temp. back to the stock setting. At this time I told you the emissions chip would not even start the car and so I returned everything to you telling you to remove the rev limiter and I would use the MSD6al to control the revs. On this third attempt you did get the rev limiter removed and you set the fans back to the proper setting for a 160 t-stat.
Jesse, my complaint with you is the tune is nowere close to what it should be. I paid for a emissions chip which is no different then the performance chip. I have close to $400.00 in this. 250 for initial tune, 10 shipping, 45 for the emissions tune, 55 for the chip adapter and paying for shipping both ways at least 2 additional times.
Every tuner I have spoke to tells me that there has to be changes made in the tables exspecially with the VE tables. You did none of these.
It is my opinion that you just dont understand or have the ability to tune a speed density car and I feel it is my obligation to warn other forum members.
You are completely entitled to your opinion of what you *think* a tune should look like. But again your emphasizing this 20hp gain or .1sec like its a lot. As I mentioned above, if the guy would have gained 40+ hp I would say I missed the tune completely, but .1sec is not a alot of difference and pretty damn good doing from a distance, and also as mentioned I AM CONSERVATIVE with the tunes.
Also I have tuned MANY speed density cars. Remember hooked ups car that runs 10.0X@133MPH with 1.28 60' times is a SD car. As is mine that runs bottom 10s, and so is Insanities and MANY others that I have tunes without incident - in much more radical setups.
I knew getting into these chips I am relying on 100s of parameters to be right when making these tunes. I just had a guy that did not realize his engine builder left the pointer alone and remarked true TDC on the balancer. After several phone calls, which I enjoy working through these types of problems, he asked his engine builder several specific question I instructed him to do and he learned of this balancer being marked (VERY ODDLY I might add) in a new location. He set his base timing to this new TDC and his headers glowing red immediately stopped, and the car ran great. Now is that my fault with the tune, if that guy would not have gotten to the bottom of it? If you can't understand that when there are problems with a car as you describe above, with a tune that should work (and does work for that matter) that some items need to be looked into before we can definately point our finger at the tune specifically. In the above mentioned incident, I could have done 200 more tunes for the guy and none of them would have been right.
Do I think I am better at tuning than others tunes - not really. But I am willing to work through these issues and help others understand why they are important and try to the best of my ability to get them running the way they should and in 99% of the cases the people are running better than they did before, and very happy with their results. Insanities car is running the same ECM is yours, with a MUCH more radical setup and does not report a single problem with idle, driveability or anything. In fact, with the recent changes he has made including the chip is has only made one spectacular pass with a 1.45 60' time! And the rest have resulted in broken rear components.
These tunes are like a rubics cube, what you think your looking at in these tables is HEAVILIY influenced my other parameters, so argueing about what you think you see is pointless if you don't understand how the interactions work. All the people mentioned in this post that are running very good, all had other tunes at one point or another do tunes for them, and with my stuff they all ran better. I would not think its fair to say I am a better tuner, just more intouch with their setups to get the combination right with a distance tune. It only takes one small thing to mess up a perfectly good tune, perhaps the other tuner in person worked around that, which would not be hard to do.
Again sorry you were disappointed, but trust that my intentions to get you the best tune I could were there and I did not fall all that short what you are now happy with.
If you should need anything in the future with your setup, tuning or not, please let me know and I will try to help.
Last edited by ski_dwn_it; Mar 22, 2005 at 11:52 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,596
Likes: 19
From: Portland Oregon
Originally Posted by vetteman9368
its threads like this that motivated me to buy a FAST system, now just to get my azz out there and install it.
I would be one of the first to say that there is nothing that would get it any closer than an in person calibration on the dyno. And just not any dyno as well. This is especially true for a SD strategy car. A DynoJet dyno without a eddy current or other means of loading capability cannot properly tune a MAF or a SD ECM in all areas. While a competent tuner can use it to tune for WOT conditions, once the rolls are up to speed there is literally no more load on the engine. Where as a load bearing dyno like a Super Flow, Mustang or any other that uses a Eddy currrent or water brake power absorber, these can hold an engine at a constant load or any type of load.
Unless a tuner has a file that he knows would work and was done on a dyno on a similar combination. He will only get close with his best guess as to what will work. I too would much rather tune on the conservative side of things if I was not there in person. It is always better to be safe than sorry if the engine rattles itself to peices with detonation due to agressive timing table.
A FAST or a GEN7 DFI system are great systems. But they take hours and hours to get them to a point where they offer drivability as good as OE offers. While their greatest strong point is online live tuning, but they still take hours to tune correctly. DFI is by far (IMHO) the easiest and offers the better tuning than FAST. Not to mention that there are no other options to purchase as far as having built in options go. Where FAST you have to send your ECU bact to FAST to have it upgraded for SEFI or WIDE BAND options. With a GEN7 its all inclusive, all you need to do is to add the additional hardware. Also I can integrate a aftermarket wideband at a fraction of the cost of Accels into the DFI system. With a FAST you have to use their wideband sensor, and if it goes bad you have to buy it from them and to add icing to the cake, you need to send your ECU back to them so they can calibrate the ECU to the sensor
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 27,897
Likes: 9
From: I have no tolerence for liberals and fools, but sometimes i repeat myself
CI 3-5-7-8-9 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08
Originally Posted by tjwong
I would be one of the first to say that there is nothing that would get it any closer than an in person calibration on the dyno. And just not any dyno as well. This is especially true for a SD strategy car. A DynoJet dyno without a eddy current or other means of loading capability cannot properly tune a MAF or a SD ECM in all areas. While a competent tuner can use it to tune for WOT conditions, once the rolls are up to speed there is literally no more load on the engine. Where as a load bearing dyno like a Super Flow, Mustang or any other that uses a Eddy currrent or water brake power absorber, these can hold an engine at a constant load or any type of load.
Unless a tuner has a file that he knows would work and was done on a dyno on a similar combination. He will only get close with his best guess as to what will work. I too would much rather tune on the conservative side of things if I was not there in person. It is always better to be safe than sorry if the engine rattles itself to peices with detonation due to agressive timing table.
A FAST or a GEN7 DFI system are great systems. But they take hours and hours to get them to a point where they offer drivability as good as OE offers. While their greatest strong point is online live tuning, but they still take hours to tune correctly. DFI is by far (IMHO) the easiest and offers the better tuning than FAST. Not to mention that there are no other options to purchase as far as having built in options go. Where FAST you have to send your ECU bact to FAST to have it upgraded for SEFI or WIDE BAND options. With a GEN7 its all inclusive, all you need to do is to add the additional hardware. Also I can integrate a aftermarket wideband at a fraction of the cost of Accels into the DFI system. With a FAST you have to use their wideband sensor, and if it goes bad you have to buy it from them and to add icing to the cake, you need to send your ECU back to them so they can calibrate the ECU to the sensor
Unless a tuner has a file that he knows would work and was done on a dyno on a similar combination. He will only get close with his best guess as to what will work. I too would much rather tune on the conservative side of things if I was not there in person. It is always better to be safe than sorry if the engine rattles itself to peices with detonation due to agressive timing table.
A FAST or a GEN7 DFI system are great systems. But they take hours and hours to get them to a point where they offer drivability as good as OE offers. While their greatest strong point is online live tuning, but they still take hours to tune correctly. DFI is by far (IMHO) the easiest and offers the better tuning than FAST. Not to mention that there are no other options to purchase as far as having built in options go. Where FAST you have to send your ECU bact to FAST to have it upgraded for SEFI or WIDE BAND options. With a GEN7 its all inclusive, all you need to do is to add the additional hardware. Also I can integrate a aftermarket wideband at a fraction of the cost of Accels into the DFI system. With a FAST you have to use their wideband sensor, and if it goes bad you have to buy it from them and to add icing to the cake, you need to send your ECU back to them so they can calibrate the ECU to the sensor
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 9,938
Likes: 38
From: South Carolina
St. Jude Donor '03 & '05
I had a similiar situation with Alvin vs Ed Wright, both were mail order, as I live in Hawaii. I didnt dyno the car till after Alvin sent me the chip, and after Ed Wrights chip. Alvin picked up 20 rwhp and 28 ft/lbs of torque. Ed's chips are conservative.Never the less, ALvins chips are cheaper and has really good customer service. This new cam I am doing, is with Alvins tuneing, but I will use TTS Datamaster to fine tune it with him via email, and it will be slow, mail from Postal Service, but worth it.
PCMforless rocks.
PCMforless rocks.
Pro
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 552
Likes: 13
From: Oz
Originally Posted by ski_dwn_it
93Ragtop.
In addition, you should realize that there are MANY other parameters, patches and other methods to change parameters than what tunercat can offer and will NOT show. So while you think your making an accurate comparison, you are merely comparing the parameters as tunercat sees them. Anyone that knows will tell you that tunercat is constantly adding these newer parameters as they become aware, for example: the location that triggers the upshift light was just added to their menues. We are contunially learning new location that control different parameters and interact differentially with other parameters.
In addition, you should realize that there are MANY other parameters, patches and other methods to change parameters than what tunercat can offer and will NOT show. So while you think your making an accurate comparison, you are merely comparing the parameters as tunercat sees them. Anyone that knows will tell you that tunercat is constantly adding these newer parameters as they become aware, for example: the location that triggers the upshift light was just added to their menues. We are contunially learning new location that control different parameters and interact differentially with other parameters.
93ragtop,
Why don't you do a .bin comparison in TunerPro. It will show all the differences regardless of whether they are defined in the .ecu definition or not. It will generate a report showing which hex addresses contain different values in the 2 bins. Not that it really matters what the minor differences are.. Most ppl are missing the point here.. Its not the 20hp difference, its the fact that the VE tables were untouched.. For a SD car, this is unbelievable!
Last edited by ben73; Mar 22, 2005 at 02:58 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,284
Likes: 4
From: Canton MI
Hey guys,
Late last year Jesse tuned my brother’s car, at first we had some problems. The first thing that my brother blamed was jesses tune. I knew something else was wrong. At first the car didn’t want to start so we played around with the timing got the car to start, after that we took the car for a ride and the car felt like sh*t and there we go blaming it on Jesse again. Sent him the chip back got it back in less than 48 hours put it back in the car and still the same thing.
So I decide to take the car to a dealer and have it checked for any codes come to find out that the ECM was bad, we took the car home ordered a new ECM installed it the car started the car up, the car ran better but for some reason the headers started to glow red and then we came to find out the distributor was off a tooth. Got that fixed the car ran great with no problems, then 3 weeks after that we took the car to the dyno got her strapped and ready for the pull, after the first run the A/f ratio was so lean way up in the 15.1 . the car didn’t put down much power and at this point my brother was so mad that he wanted to sell the car. And like Jesse mentioned the first thing they blame is the tune. Long story short it turned out to be a bad mass air and the car is running great and made 50 more HP than the last dyno pull. Am sure that my bros car can and should make more power but for the over the mail tune Jesse got as accurate as it can get for an over the mail tune. I highly recommend him for anyone out there that wants to get a tune and no matter how good of a service you offer there’s always someone out there that is not satisfied it happens to the best of us. With Jesse you can always get back to him if you have a problem and his always helping out forum members with other thing than tuning..
Late last year Jesse tuned my brother’s car, at first we had some problems. The first thing that my brother blamed was jesses tune. I knew something else was wrong. At first the car didn’t want to start so we played around with the timing got the car to start, after that we took the car for a ride and the car felt like sh*t and there we go blaming it on Jesse again. Sent him the chip back got it back in less than 48 hours put it back in the car and still the same thing.
So I decide to take the car to a dealer and have it checked for any codes come to find out that the ECM was bad, we took the car home ordered a new ECM installed it the car started the car up, the car ran better but for some reason the headers started to glow red and then we came to find out the distributor was off a tooth. Got that fixed the car ran great with no problems, then 3 weeks after that we took the car to the dyno got her strapped and ready for the pull, after the first run the A/f ratio was so lean way up in the 15.1 . the car didn’t put down much power and at this point my brother was so mad that he wanted to sell the car. And like Jesse mentioned the first thing they blame is the tune. Long story short it turned out to be a bad mass air and the car is running great and made 50 more HP than the last dyno pull. Am sure that my bros car can and should make more power but for the over the mail tune Jesse got as accurate as it can get for an over the mail tune. I highly recommend him for anyone out there that wants to get a tune and no matter how good of a service you offer there’s always someone out there that is not satisfied it happens to the best of us. With Jesse you can always get back to him if you have a problem and his always helping out forum members with other thing than tuning..
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,240
Likes: 42
From: Baltimore, MD USA
Originally Posted by red L98
for some reason the headers started to glow red and then we came to find out the distributor was off a tooth. I highly recommend him for anyone out there that wants to get a tune and no matter how good of a service you offer there’s always someone out there that is not satisfied it happens to the best of us. With Jesse you can always get back to him if you have a problem and his always helping out forum members with other thing than tuning..
The original poster asked for an explaination as to why the Performance Chip was the same as the Emission chip? No answer has been provided.
When someone charges that much to burn a Chip, it is assumed the person is running a Business and as such should handle matters in a Business manner.
I'm interested in hearing the explaination concerning the Emission Chip being the same as the Performance Chip. If this was a mistake he should refund the $45.00. If it wasn't a mistake well :o
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Hooked on Vettes,
I have already explained there are many other parameter and ways to alter the tunes on these cars besides the popular tuner cat. There are many hacks/patches that allow for a variety of enhancements that tunercat is oblivious of. So using it as a comparison tool is not going to reflect all the changes.
In addition, i am always specific when people refer to tunes to pass emissions. I tell them I will do my best, but can't guarantee anything - all I can do is if there is a problem - try to correct for the findings.
Emissions are no different than performance changes to a tune. As red l98 clearly pointed out, as did I, there are sometimes circumstances that do not allow for even the best of tunes to work properly. Say he has a bad cat - nothing in the tune is going to fix that. You might be able to alter somethings to mask it, but there are no little mechanics that jump out of my tunes to fix the real problems. For the people that have everything right on their setups - they have no problems and enjoy the full benefits. For those that don't I try my best to work with them to discover the underlying problems. Red l98 is a perfect example and he is NOT alone.
I have already explained there are many other parameter and ways to alter the tunes on these cars besides the popular tuner cat. There are many hacks/patches that allow for a variety of enhancements that tunercat is oblivious of. So using it as a comparison tool is not going to reflect all the changes.
In addition, i am always specific when people refer to tunes to pass emissions. I tell them I will do my best, but can't guarantee anything - all I can do is if there is a problem - try to correct for the findings.
Emissions are no different than performance changes to a tune. As red l98 clearly pointed out, as did I, there are sometimes circumstances that do not allow for even the best of tunes to work properly. Say he has a bad cat - nothing in the tune is going to fix that. You might be able to alter somethings to mask it, but there are no little mechanics that jump out of my tunes to fix the real problems. For the people that have everything right on their setups - they have no problems and enjoy the full benefits. For those that don't I try my best to work with them to discover the underlying problems. Red l98 is a perfect example and he is NOT alone.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 83,383
Likes: 87
From: Boston, MA
Originally Posted by ski_dwn_it
I have already explained there are many other parameter and ways to alter the tunes on these cars besides the popular tuner cat. There are many hacks/patches that allow for a variety of enhancements that tunercat is oblivious of. So using it as a comparison tool is not going to reflect all the changes.
To both parties I will offer to compare the 2 binary files byte for byte and post the differences. This will show every difference regardless of what editing tool was used.
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
St. Jude Donor '05
You've been found out bud.
I think you ought to refund the guy his money.
The emmissions chip you charged him for is a 100% match in binary to the performance chip that you charged him for. Did you honestly think he wanted 2 copys of the same chip?
As far as the performance chip theres absoulutely zero spark changes, a very minor guess at wide open fuel across the board. For goodness sakes you didn't even raise the idle for the cam and you short changed him quite a bit of RPM with the rev limitor. A hotcammed car requires absoulutely zero fuel and spark changes in part throttle? No spark changes at wide open? A globle fuel change at wide open? Thats a new one for me..
The performance chip has nothing changed hidden by tuner cat.. Theres probally 18 or so hex values that have been changed as opposed to around 200 or so hex values that get changed on a tuned chip.
He basically paid $400 for 2 fan switches.
The binary compare with reveal all.. Or are you hiding stuff between the binary?
: For those who are watching and are unaware binary is the 0's and 1's that the memory is made of. If all the binary adds up it means its a letter for letter match.
Hopefully the customer will post his findings, as they are his chips and he has an unbiased view on this.
I think you ought to refund the guy his money.
The emmissions chip you charged him for is a 100% match in binary to the performance chip that you charged him for. Did you honestly think he wanted 2 copys of the same chip?
As far as the performance chip theres absoulutely zero spark changes, a very minor guess at wide open fuel across the board. For goodness sakes you didn't even raise the idle for the cam and you short changed him quite a bit of RPM with the rev limitor. A hotcammed car requires absoulutely zero fuel and spark changes in part throttle? No spark changes at wide open? A globle fuel change at wide open? Thats a new one for me..
The performance chip has nothing changed hidden by tuner cat.. Theres probally 18 or so hex values that have been changed as opposed to around 200 or so hex values that get changed on a tuned chip.
He basically paid $400 for 2 fan switches.
The binary compare with reveal all.. Or are you hiding stuff between the binary?
: For those who are watching and are unaware binary is the 0's and 1's that the memory is made of. If all the binary adds up it means its a letter for letter match.Hopefully the customer will post his findings, as they are his chips and he has an unbiased view on this.
Last edited by Alvin; Mar 22, 2005 at 06:57 PM.