383 smoking update.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
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From: tomahawk wisconsin
Originally Posted by ZD1
for the smoking..
1) It's your rings (but, I'dont think so because you have oil in the intake track...unless you are back firing)
2) It's your EGR circuit...Only other path into intake track
3) You are using heads with EGR passages, rather than using the intake's
for a good intake gaskter seal....
-place a heavy bead of black silicone on both sides of the intake gaskets and the little cork pieces on the front and back of the motor
-set the intake in gently
-torq the intake bolt to "pinkie" tightness
-wait ~30 minutes or until the intake bolts have no "tightness"...basically you want the sealant to set up a nice thick gasket layer that is conformal to the mating surfaces
-wait a little bit longer and tighten the bolts in pattern and in steps
by letting the sealant setup before you torq it down, you get a dernser and more positive seal.
w
1) It's your rings (but, I'dont think so because you have oil in the intake track...unless you are back firing)
2) It's your EGR circuit...Only other path into intake track
3) You are using heads with EGR passages, rather than using the intake's
for a good intake gaskter seal....
-place a heavy bead of black silicone on both sides of the intake gaskets and the little cork pieces on the front and back of the motor
-set the intake in gently
-torq the intake bolt to "pinkie" tightness
-wait ~30 minutes or until the intake bolts have no "tightness"...basically you want the sealant to set up a nice thick gasket layer that is conformal to the mating surfaces
-wait a little bit longer and tighten the bolts in pattern and in steps
by letting the sealant setup before you torq it down, you get a dernser and more positive seal.
w
I changed the seals on the heads.
1) I pulled the valve covers and removed all the rockers
2)I used my leakdown gaudge and compressed the cylinder
3)I then removed the spring and pulled the old seal off
4)I relpaced the old seal with a new one by slightly tapping it on to the guide with a hammer and a 11mm socket. and then I stuck it all back together and moved on to the next one.
The 11mm socket fits better on the outside edge of the seal better than one of those little black seal tools do.the little black ones seem to either tear the top of the seal or tear up the spring around the top of the seal.
also the intake has egr blockoff plates on it.how could oil get into the intake trough there?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
Did you use the little shield on the valve stem tip BEFORE installing the new seals? Tapping a new seal onto the valve without the shield can damage the ID of the seal.
Are you sure you're using the correct seals for the diameter of your valve stems and the OD of the guides in your heads?
Another point, if you tap the seals down too far, you'll distort them.
How well do the intake manifold gasket fit both the ports in the head AND the intake port opening? - especially at the bottom where there's evidence of oil leakage.
How did the milled intake sit on the chinawalls? What was the amount of the gaps between the block chinawalls and the bottom of the intake manifold? It shouldn't be flush with NO gap. The intake ports should mate flush leaving a gap at the chinawalls.
What was the amount of gaps where the intake meets the heads?
Do the openings in both head and intake manifold measure the same?
Do you know of anyone who can take a look at your setup? Another pair of eyes may see something you've missed.
Jake
Are you sure you're using the correct seals for the diameter of your valve stems and the OD of the guides in your heads?
Another point, if you tap the seals down too far, you'll distort them.
How well do the intake manifold gasket fit both the ports in the head AND the intake port opening? - especially at the bottom where there's evidence of oil leakage.
How did the milled intake sit on the chinawalls? What was the amount of the gaps between the block chinawalls and the bottom of the intake manifold? It shouldn't be flush with NO gap. The intake ports should mate flush leaving a gap at the chinawalls.
What was the amount of gaps where the intake meets the heads?
Do the openings in both head and intake manifold measure the same?
Do you know of anyone who can take a look at your setup? Another pair of eyes may see something you've missed.
Jake
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: tomahawk wisconsin
Originally Posted by JAKE
Did you use the little shield on the valve stem tip BEFORE installing the new seals? Tapping a new seal onto the valve without the shield can damage the ID of the seal.
Are you sure you're using the correct seals for the diameter of your valve stems and the OD of the guides in your heads?
Another point, if you tap the seals down too far, you'll distort them.
How well do the intake manifold gasket fit both the ports in the head AND the intake port opening? - especially at the bottom where there's evidence of oil leakage.
How did the milled intake sit on the chinawalls? What was the amount of the gaps between the block chinawalls and the bottom of the intake manifold? It shouldn't be flush with NO gap. The intake ports should mate flush leaving a gap at the chinawalls.
What was the amount of gaps where the intake meets the heads?
Do the openings in both head and intake manifold measure the same?
Do you know of anyone who can take a look at your setup? Another pair of eyes may see something you've missed.
Jake
Are you sure you're using the correct seals for the diameter of your valve stems and the OD of the guides in your heads?
Another point, if you tap the seals down too far, you'll distort them.
How well do the intake manifold gasket fit both the ports in the head AND the intake port opening? - especially at the bottom where there's evidence of oil leakage.
How did the milled intake sit on the chinawalls? What was the amount of the gaps between the block chinawalls and the bottom of the intake manifold? It shouldn't be flush with NO gap. The intake ports should mate flush leaving a gap at the chinawalls.
What was the amount of gaps where the intake meets the heads?
Do the openings in both head and intake manifold measure the same?
Do you know of anyone who can take a look at your setup? Another pair of eyes may see something you've missed.
Jake
is there any other way to check for ring leakage??I can do another leak dow but I am sure I will get the same result..what should the compression be on a 10.1 motor in inch pounds?(compression gaudge)
thanks guys..
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
Originally Posted by ar91c4
there was about 1/4 inch or so between the walls and lower intake.the upper intake sat flat on the heads on top and bottom.I dont realy have anyone who can come over and go through everything with me.The only thing I can do is take it somewhere and have it checked out but they will tell me what I already know.theres nothing they can do but start tearing into it to find the source of the problem and I do not want to start adding up a big bill for this.I am capable of doing the repair if I could just figure out where the heck it is coming from.
is there any other way to check for ring leakage??I can do another leak dow but I am sure I will get the same result..what should the compression be on a 10.1 motor in inch pounds?(compression gaudge)
thanks guys..
is there any other way to check for ring leakage??I can do another leak dow but I am sure I will get the same result..what should the compression be on a 10.1 motor in inch pounds?(compression gaudge)
thanks guys..
The 1/4" chinawall gaps are fine.
Without actually pulling the pistons, the only two ways I know of to check the rings is a compression test and a leak-down test.
The actual compression gauge reading depends on the camshaft and how it was installed - straight-up, advanced or retarded and a few other factors that can effect the actual reading, like type of ring and the gap, rocker ratio, etc. So I can't give you an exact number. Maybe someone who is running the same cam, rockers, etc., as you can post their readings.
I'm going to chew on this some more What heads and intake are you running? Fine time to ask, right?
Jake
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
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From: tomahawk wisconsin
Originally Posted by JAKE
I was on the highway all night - I'm outside Denver now, and decided to drop in to check on your progress.
The 1/4" chinawall gaps are fine.
Without actually pulling the pistons, the only two ways I know of to check the rings is a compression test and a leak-down test.
The actual compression gauge reading depends on the camshaft and how it was installed - straight-up, advanced or retarded and a few other factors that can effect the actual reading, like type of ring and the gap, rocker ratio, etc. So I can't give you an exact number. Maybe someone who is running the same cam, rockers, etc., as you can post their readings.
I'm going to chew on this some more What heads and intake are you running? Fine time to ask, right?
Jake
The 1/4" chinawall gaps are fine.
Without actually pulling the pistons, the only two ways I know of to check the rings is a compression test and a leak-down test.
The actual compression gauge reading depends on the camshaft and how it was installed - straight-up, advanced or retarded and a few other factors that can effect the actual reading, like type of ring and the gap, rocker ratio, etc. So I can't give you an exact number. Maybe someone who is running the same cam, rockers, etc., as you can post their readings.
I'm going to chew on this some more What heads and intake are you running? Fine time to ask, right?
Jake
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
I've started to think that you're missing something. Something you're just not seeing because of all the frustration. That's why I suggested you have someone else, like a friend, take a look. This kind of thing has happened to me in the past.
You wrote that you had the heads ported. Is it possible that NOW the head port opening is larger - probably taller - than the intake port opening? That could leave a gap at the bottom of the port that's not being covered by the intake gasket material.
Jake
You wrote that you had the heads ported. Is it possible that NOW the head port opening is larger - probably taller - than the intake port opening? That could leave a gap at the bottom of the port that's not being covered by the intake gasket material.
Jake
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: tomahawk wisconsin
Originally Posted by JAKE
I've started to think that you're missing something. Something you're just not seeing because of all the frustration. That's why I suggested you have someone else, like a friend, take a look. This kind of thing has happened to me in the past.
You wrote that you had the heads ported. Is it possible that NOW the head port opening is larger - probably taller - than the intake port opening? That could leave a gap at the bottom of the port that's not being covered by the intake gasket material.
Jake
You wrote that you had the heads ported. Is it possible that NOW the head port opening is larger - probably taller - than the intake port opening? That could leave a gap at the bottom of the port that's not being covered by the intake gasket material.
Jake
hears a good one for you Jake,
do you have any ideas if the stock seals off a 1997 350 vortech SFI motor have the same stem size and guide openings? I am not real sure and I have to find a set I can use before tomarrow. They cant be the stock seals because the heads have tripple comp springs on them and the stock seals are to thick and they will rub against the inner spring. the seals off the vortech look identical to the ones posted above (on page 1 by 8388) but I am not positive if all the dimenssions are right.
7th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
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Two things to check: with the ported 113 heads it is possible that the rocker studs are now open to the port runner. If so they need to be sealed with some thread sealant (such as Loktite pipe thread selant w/teflon).
The other thing to check is the PCV system. Your symptoms match a problem I saw a couple of years ago. Cruising was fine, but get off the highway and stop at the end of the ramp and smoke would pour out of the exhaust. The valve cover baffles didn't do a good job (GM covers on '113 heads). Or, just sit at idle for a while and the smoke would start slowly and after a while build up to a smoke screen.
A ratty cam makes this worse as the fluctuating manifold pressure creates a pumping action. Solution was a oil separator in line with the PCV hose.
Al.
The other thing to check is the PCV system. Your symptoms match a problem I saw a couple of years ago. Cruising was fine, but get off the highway and stop at the end of the ramp and smoke would pour out of the exhaust. The valve cover baffles didn't do a good job (GM covers on '113 heads). Or, just sit at idle for a while and the smoke would start slowly and after a while build up to a smoke screen.
A ratty cam makes this worse as the fluctuating manifold pressure creates a pumping action. Solution was a oil separator in line with the PCV hose.
Al.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: tomahawk wisconsin
Originally Posted by ABrown
Two things to check: with the ported 113 heads it is possible that the rocker studs are now open to the port runner. If so they need to be sealed with some thread sealant (such as Loktite pipe thread selant w/teflon).
The other thing to check is the PCV system. Your symptoms match a problem I saw a couple of years ago. Cruising was fine, but get off the highway and stop at the end of the ramp and smoke would pour out of the exhaust. The valve cover baffles didn't do a good job (GM covers on '113 heads). Or, just sit at idle for a while and the smoke would start slowly and after a while build up to a smoke screen.
A ratty cam makes this worse as the fluctuating manifold pressure creates a pumping action. Solution was a oil separator in line with the PCV hose.
Al.
The other thing to check is the PCV system. Your symptoms match a problem I saw a couple of years ago. Cruising was fine, but get off the highway and stop at the end of the ramp and smoke would pour out of the exhaust. The valve cover baffles didn't do a good job (GM covers on '113 heads). Or, just sit at idle for a while and the smoke would start slowly and after a while build up to a smoke screen.
A ratty cam makes this worse as the fluctuating manifold pressure creates a pumping action. Solution was a oil separator in line with the PCV hose.
Al.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: tomahawk wisconsin
Originally Posted by ar91c4
I temporarily did away with the pcv and it helped a little but it is not the main sorce..I am in the process of taking the springs off and changing the seals now..I will keep everyone updated.
I just pulled all the springs on the worst side (passenger) and changed the seals.They where all like brand new and I also checked all the guides the best I could and they had barley any play in them...
so I havent started the car back up yet because I might as well do the drivers side too but I realy dont see this being the problem..I am all out of ideas and patients with this thing.anybody have any other ideas?
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,923
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From: GA
This is the most obvious (to me anyway), who built the engine? It is just possible that they put the rings in wrong by having the gaps in them (especially the oil rings) aligned and allowing the oil into the cylinders.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
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From: tomahawk wisconsin
I guess its possible but 3 of the 8 cyliners look great and the other 5 are black...also the motor didnt always smoke real bad like this.there was a couple weeks where it didnt smoke a bit..I am totaly out of ideas on this thing...
I have all but 2 cylinders done..I wont beable to finish it until the storm lets up now (tornado watch) ...I realy doubt it will have any effect on it though.
I have all but 2 cylinders done..I wont beable to finish it until the storm lets up now (tornado watch) ...I realy doubt it will have any effect on it though.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 315
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From: tomahawk wisconsin
Originally Posted by Morley
Could also be the wrong tension oil rings.