Water injection?
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 2
From: The Motor City
Water injection?
OK, this is going to sound really stupid and it will certianly make me look like one serious noob, but can someone explain to me this whole idea of "water injection" with respect to supercharging? My understanding is that water is actually injected into the engine's intake air stream.
I don't know about you all, but I was always told that water and engines (especially the intake side) just don't mix. Probably has something to do with the basic fact that water really doesn't compress very well, and it certainly doesn't ignite well either.
Am I missing something here?!?
I don't know about you all, but I was always told that water and engines (especially the intake side) just don't mix. Probably has something to do with the basic fact that water really doesn't compress very well, and it certainly doesn't ignite well either.
Am I missing something here?!?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 2
From: Rochester NY
when the supercharger compressed very hot air and discharge to the intake tract. Water injection they use a very small nozzle that spray water mix with meth under a very high pressure pump that will spray a very fine mist. That fine mist will cool the hot compressed air. So the intake will never really see any wet water in it. The fine mist will dry up and cool the air.
Bruce
Bruce
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
St. Jude Donor '05
Water works ok but it has been my experience that straight methonol works better.. my guess is because it still acts like a fuel where water does not.
Its quite simple really.. Heres a summed up version Blower cars use more fuel or a richer AFR and less timing because they need the cylinder cooling.. Water uses up something like 20 times the energy gasonline does during vaporazation so a moderate amount of water/alcohol can replace quite a bit of fuel and do a better job at the cooling. This lets you run a leaner AFR and more advance making more power.
IF you spray alcohol or water on a blower car and change nothing else you will lose power.
Case:
Friday I did a 302 with a kenne bell blower. It did something like 360rwhp with just the blower. AFR was 12.0 and timing was pretty healthy.
We sprayed water/alcohol on it and the car made about 300rwhp AFR was lower than 10:1
We sprayed alcohol, corrected the AFR back to 12.0 and put more timing into the car.. It did 400+rwhp.
I'll bet if I would have continuted to lean it out to around 12.5 or so it would have made anthor 10-15rwhp.
Its quite simple really.. Heres a summed up version Blower cars use more fuel or a richer AFR and less timing because they need the cylinder cooling.. Water uses up something like 20 times the energy gasonline does during vaporazation so a moderate amount of water/alcohol can replace quite a bit of fuel and do a better job at the cooling. This lets you run a leaner AFR and more advance making more power.
IF you spray alcohol or water on a blower car and change nothing else you will lose power.
Case:
Friday I did a 302 with a kenne bell blower. It did something like 360rwhp with just the blower. AFR was 12.0 and timing was pretty healthy.
We sprayed water/alcohol on it and the car made about 300rwhp AFR was lower than 10:1
We sprayed alcohol, corrected the AFR back to 12.0 and put more timing into the car.. It did 400+rwhp.
I'll bet if I would have continuted to lean it out to around 12.5 or so it would have made anthor 10-15rwhp.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,564
Likes: 28
From: Medina OH
I'm glad this thread is going! I have some basic questions along the same line. I'm sure a lot of people reading this have the same questions (I hope I'm not jacking the thread) 
With the meth/water:
1. What is the "best" ratio -- 50/50?
2. Where is the best place to install, in the metal reducer tube before the TB with the nozzle pointing towards the engine?
3. Does the injection run all the time, or just under WOT?
4. Nozzle size?
5. Where do you buy the meth?
6. Who has the best kit on the market -- and what is a good $ ballpark range for them?
Thaks gurus!
With the meth/water:
1. What is the "best" ratio -- 50/50?
2. Where is the best place to install, in the metal reducer tube before the TB with the nozzle pointing towards the engine?
3. Does the injection run all the time, or just under WOT?
4. Nozzle size?
5. Where do you buy the meth?
6. Who has the best kit on the market -- and what is a good $ ballpark range for them?
Thaks gurus!
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by 85 Stalker
I'm glad this thread is going! I have some basic questions along the same line. I'm sure a lot of people reading this have the same questions (I hope I'm not jacking the thread)
With the meth/water:
1. What is the "best" ratio -- 50/50?
2. Where is the best place to install, in the metal reducer tube before the TB with the nozzle pointing towards the engine?
3. Does the injection run all the time, or just under WOT?
4. Nozzle size?
5. Where do you buy the meth?
6. Who has the best kit on the market -- and what is a good $ ballpark range for them?
Thaks gurus!
With the meth/water:
1. What is the "best" ratio -- 50/50?
2. Where is the best place to install, in the metal reducer tube before the TB with the nozzle pointing towards the engine?
3. Does the injection run all the time, or just under WOT?
4. Nozzle size?
5. Where do you buy the meth?
6. Who has the best kit on the market -- and what is a good $ ballpark range for them?
Thaks gurus!
1. The best ratio is something you'll have to find. I found straight meth works good.. otheres like a mix
2. Anywhere after the blower but before the throttle body
3 only under boost, but these things can work on NA cars
4. 10-15 gal/hr typically
5. your local track
6. I like the snow performance kits. Also nice is the alkycontrol.com and theres anthor one like SMC or something like that.
I've been thinking about building myself yet anthor controller that meets all my needs and putting the alky back on my car. The first controller I built was strickly PWM (for roots blown car) with a TPS reference. The next one will be a PWM with on board map sensor and proportional to boost.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 2
From: Rochester NY
Originally Posted by redbullapril23
1. can you run it with N20? pure meth or a mix?
2. how much does a kit cost?
3. what is required to install it? is it hard to set up yourself?
2. how much does a kit cost?
3. what is required to install it? is it hard to set up yourself?
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Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,830
Likes: 1
From: atlanta Georgia
haha no no i mean with out actually hittin it. say with like jsut racing NA for a race. obviously... whats the point, that was a stupid question now that i think about.
i know n20 gets extremely cold went converted from liquid to gas.
but yall are sayin that you still see gains on NA cars and its safe?
is there anything bad about alky injection? what could go wrong..
so let me get this right... the meth is a liquid in a tank... and get sprayed like N20 into the air intake? but only under WOT so really you could have like a solenoid for it and a WOT switch like they do for nitrous systems to activate it and a switch to turn the system on.
i kinda like the idea of that.. sounds kool! next project car will have a turbo and i will go this route. im thinkin a 87-89 porsche 944 turbo. build the engine for some high power turbo. man thatd be the day.
i know n20 gets extremely cold went converted from liquid to gas.
but yall are sayin that you still see gains on NA cars and its safe?
is there anything bad about alky injection? what could go wrong..
so let me get this right... the meth is a liquid in a tank... and get sprayed like N20 into the air intake? but only under WOT so really you could have like a solenoid for it and a WOT switch like they do for nitrous systems to activate it and a switch to turn the system on.
i kinda like the idea of that.. sounds kool! next project car will have a turbo and i will go this route. im thinkin a 87-89 porsche 944 turbo. build the engine for some high power turbo. man thatd be the day.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,277
Likes: 32
From: Mission Viejo California
there are guys running the kits with straight meth for the octane effects with nitrous. Imagine that.... pump gas and a 300 shot. I've actually heard about this from more than one source.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,830
Likes: 1
From: atlanta Georgia
thats awesome... so you could technically raise the octane of pump gas with meth? lowering chances for dentonation. not to mention how youd run cleaner. thats why people add this for emmissions...
hmmm id be very interested in this. do you have any more info on whos doing this. im guessing they are going with forged internals.
anyone on here?
hmmm id be very interested in this. do you have any more info on whos doing this. im guessing they are going with forged internals.
anyone on here?
Last edited by redbullapril23; Aug 22, 2005 at 02:24 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,581
Likes: 2
From: The Motor City
OK, so if I understand this correctly, the water injection system is ultimately used to cool the incoming charge enough that it allows for greater spark advance and a slightly leaner air-fuel ratio. And, because of the heat that's present in the incoming charge, the water (or methanol/water mix) actually evatorates before it hits the combustion chamber.
Did I get this right?
Because if I have got it right, I have to ask yet another stupid question: why not just use an intercooler? I would think that the overall effect would be the same (assuming you could pass enough air over the intercooler) but with less mechanical parts and far less likelihood of some potential malfunction with respect to the water injection system. Don't get me wrong, I don't know how reliable these systems are, but surely someone at one point or another has encounter some kind of problem with their water injection; an intercooler would eliminate that.
Of course, I also don't know how one faires against the other with respect to cost - a water injection system may very well be considerably less expensive than an intercooler setup (if you include all the duct-work, piping, etc...).
Just a thought.
Did I get this right?
Because if I have got it right, I have to ask yet another stupid question: why not just use an intercooler? I would think that the overall effect would be the same (assuming you could pass enough air over the intercooler) but with less mechanical parts and far less likelihood of some potential malfunction with respect to the water injection system. Don't get me wrong, I don't know how reliable these systems are, but surely someone at one point or another has encounter some kind of problem with their water injection; an intercooler would eliminate that.
Of course, I also don't know how one faires against the other with respect to cost - a water injection system may very well be considerably less expensive than an intercooler setup (if you include all the duct-work, piping, etc...).
Just a thought.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 2
From: Honeoye Ny
well in a phrase? adaquate airflow. As in there isn't enough space for a large enough unit with adequate airfloq going to it. Also, the hassle of plumbing. It's so much easier to go from compressor outlet to throttle body, then plumb boost all over the place. there just isn't enough room in a c4
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by TheCorvetteKid
Because if I have got it right, I have to ask yet another stupid question: why not just use an intercooler? I would think that the overall effect would be the same (assuming you could pass enough air over the intercooler) but with less mechanical parts and far less likelihood of some potential malfunction with respect to the water injection system. Don't get me wrong, I don't know how reliable these systems are, but surely someone at one point or another has encounter some kind of problem with their water injection; an intercooler would eliminate that.
Now that the road temps are over 115 degrees My aftercooler stays around 130-140 F in traffic.
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 13,963
Likes: 709
From: WI
An intercooler helps to, yes. I had a turbo dodge with water injection. I used distilled water and rubbing alchol. The methanol is a pretty strong chemical. A intercooler also can get heat soaked. Use one water injection for intake and another to spray the intercooler.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 1
From: Carlsbad, CA CA
you can buy meth at any local VP distributor. Just go on Vp's website and you should be able to locate one.
I run the snow kit and you cannot run pure meth becuase of the plastic seal and fitting in the tank. The snow kit has a very small cheap tank and push in fittings. Other than that, I think its a good kit.
I would look into the ECS Kit for $550.
I run the snow kit and you cannot run pure meth becuase of the plastic seal and fitting in the tank. The snow kit has a very small cheap tank and push in fittings. Other than that, I think its a good kit.
I would look into the ECS Kit for $550.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,496
Likes: 1
From: alaska
some irony,methanol is used in air systems to dry moisture 
put that in your pipe and smoke it lol
some good information here ,at least there is for a nooob like myself.
the water injection might have seemed odd to me had i not used to spray straight water into sbc carbs years ago to clean carbon from the combustion chambers.(job site required 24/7 idling and engines would load up and ping like heck).grab the throttle and dump water right down its throat while revving and watch the chunks blow out th exhaust.ah the good ol simple days.holley made a water injection plate for under carbs too.
im interested in a way to cool the air just to run lower octane gas in my dd.
some good ideas here.thanks
put that in your pipe and smoke it lol
some good information here ,at least there is for a nooob like myself.
the water injection might have seemed odd to me had i not used to spray straight water into sbc carbs years ago to clean carbon from the combustion chambers.(job site required 24/7 idling and engines would load up and ping like heck).grab the throttle and dump water right down its throat while revving and watch the chunks blow out th exhaust.ah the good ol simple days.holley made a water injection plate for under carbs too.
im interested in a way to cool the air just to run lower octane gas in my dd.
some good ideas here.thanks
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
From: Montanja Noord Aruba
I'm also a newbie at this meth injection system. So...i'm running a s/c and n2o. Can i just dump the i/c and run the meth inj. and also run the n2o once a while???
Because if I have got it right, I have to ask yet another stupid question: why not just use an intercooler?
I read in an other thread, someone did a test with and without the i/c. With the i/c they saw a +/- 7psi drop.
Assuming that's correct, i'm running +/- 20 psi of boost through the i/c. If i bypass the i/c, will i see 27 psi of boost????
If that's so....i like it
....
Originally Posted by TheCorvetteKid
Because if I have got it right, I have to ask yet another stupid question: why not just use an intercooler?
Assuming that's correct, i'm running +/- 20 psi of boost through the i/c. If i bypass the i/c, will i see 27 psi of boost????
If that's so....i like it
....
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,277
Likes: 32
From: Mission Viejo California
they say that 50/50 acts slightly better than c16 on the dyno according to the mustang guys that run mostly 50/50 setups.
The buick and C5 guys all swear by pure alky.
Dr. Boost- you want more than 20 lbs of boost? Do you have any drivetrain parts left?!!! I'd be happy if I could get half that out of my s trim!
The buick and C5 guys all swear by pure alky.
Dr. Boost- you want more than 20 lbs of boost? Do you have any drivetrain parts left?!!! I'd be happy if I could get half that out of my s trim!