Hi all. I have a 1995 A4 coupe with 275/45/17 front and 315/35/17 rear. Ever since the first alignment I had done to this car in 2001 it has never been right. But I keep trying.

Today I had a local shop with a good reputation mount and balance new rubber and of course do a four wheel alignment. They have a Hunter 9000 or 9700 seris machine and a brand new Hunter alignment station so I'm feeling pretty good so far.

I told them that if you hold the wheel straight the car drifts right. If you let go of the wheel the car drifts right. I showed the guy the tire wear on the fronts. The inside two inches on the right front were bald. The inside two inches on the left front were worn more than the rest of the tire but not as bad as the right side tire. The rears looked like I ran with 60 lbs in each. The center five inches were completely bald on both. The left rear also was bald two inches from the inside of the tire. The thing is I was running 26 lbs cold ever since I got them. The guy says the front is probably toe issue. He's the expert. He doesn't say anything about the 26 lbs rears and probably figured I just have a heavy foot. He's the expert. I ask him if he wants to use my factory shop manual for anything. The guy says nope. He's the expert. So off I go.

I pick the car up tonight and the first thing that smelled bad was he told me they couldn't get the caster in the left side more than 5.1*. I must have had a wierd look on my face because then he tells me the good news is that the rear alignment was easy and adjusted right into place. Oh goodie. So I ask to see the before and after and here is what I got:

Front Left: Before After
Camber 0.2* 0.4*
Caster 5.1* 5.1*
Toe 0.17* -0.03*

Front Right: Before After
Camber 0.1* 0.0*
Caster 6.4* 6.4*
Toe 0.19* -0.02*

Rear Left : Before After
Camber -0.3* -0.3*
Toe 0.03* 0.01*

Rear Right: Before After
Camber 0.3* 0.3*
Toe -0.04* -0.06*

But it's closing time so no time to start a long conversation about anything. He tells me to drive it and let him know how it feels. So off I go and before I'm 100 yards from the now closed shop the steering wheel is vibrating in my hands. Not a very impressive balancing job I think to myself. But wait. The wheel is 10* - 15* off center to the right and I'm going straight. Let go of the wheel and now the car veers to the left. Hold the wheel straight and the car veers to the left.

Now for the really confusing part. I get home and start looking at the shims on the front and they haven't changed. No new shims, no shims missing, no shims moved from front to back or back to front. How in the world do you get caster and camber to move without disturbing a shim?

So, now I don't know what to do. I will be calling the shop in the morning to tell him about the ride home. And he'll probably say bring it in and we'll look at it again....all day. And maybe they'll fix the balance issue but I doubt the alignment will get any better. There goes another set of tires in 13000 miles. May 2005 - October 2005 and April 2006 - August 2006. Oh did I not mention that earlier. Yep. 13000 miles.

I wish I knew more about the dynamics of aligning this car. I do know that after that fateful alignment in 2001 most of the shims on the left side were remove and a couple were replaced with a much thinner shim. The FSM says that if you add shims to the front or remove shims from the rear you get positive caster. How do I get more caster on the left side without adding camber? Why is the rear dog legging? Why do I have negative toe in the front? All in all the car handled better with the old tires before the alignment.

Any insight, suggestion, analysis, pity is welcome and appeciated in advance.

 

From your before numbers you must have had significant toe out on the front axle, perhaps this is the cause of the inside tire wear.

It sounds like they only adjusted the toe on front and possibly the rear too. The camber may have changed slightly as a result of the toe adjustment, since no shims seem to have been touched. The rear camber is done via the cam bolts, but the before and after numbers are unchanged.

Also it sounds like they set the toe with the steering wheel off center. Since camber affects toe, I guess toe can also affect camber, somewhat.

I'm no alignment expert but I've done a better job than what you have described at home with a simple camber gauge, some chalk lines drawn on the ground, a tape measure, and setting the toe dynamically by trial and error to re-center the wheel.

It should be easy to get the wheel centered. Toe both fronts toward the right (the same direction that the steering wheel is offset)by an equal amount, like 1/4 turn and go for a test drive. Repeat as necessary.

I suggest you give them specific alignment specs to target, like the vb&p recommeded settings for advance street etc, and not rely on factory specs and tolerances that the machine generates.

http://www.vbandp.com/instructions/h...ruct/align.htm

I'm running something in between the advanced street/track, and autocross settings with around -1.25 front camber and -0.5 rear camber to work with my Nitto 555 RII tires.

 

If you have a flat garage floor, can pull a string tight, and have a plumb bob, it's not that difficult to do a zero toe, zero camber alignment on the vette. Since it's got a garbage alignment already, you're not likely to make it any worse. As for caster, my understanding is, it doesn't wear out the tires when you're driving straight, only in turns. It's a starting point at least, if you're inclined to DIY.

Any chance the frame has been bent/wrecked in the past?

 

Thanks for the response tequilaboy. But I thought a positive toe angle meant the tires were pointed in towards the center line of the car looking from the front. Or does the toe change that much with new tires mounted? I figured the guy that did the "before" alignment doubled up on positive front toe to fix wandering created by too little front left castor and a rear alignment that was "steering" the car. Why the front right was bald on the inside two inches is not making sense unless the rear "steer" was pushing the front of the car to the right.

Now I have negative toe in front which would mean the tires are pointed out from the center line of the car looking from the front. I would think that if nothing else the car is going to have a tendancy to wander and should wear both front tires on the inside. And to make it worse the rear alignment should accelerate the wear because now there is even more negative tow in the right rear.

I would still like to know how to get more positive caster without getting more positive camber. Like 1* more positive caster and .4* less camber on the front left. The steering wheel and the front toe should not be that hard to correct. Maybe I should insist that the tech read my FSM for the rear camber adjust method.

I considered giving them the daily driver setup from vbp but figured if it didn't work well I would have no recourse but to pay again to get it dialed in. Now I'm thinking what's the difference. Another couple dollars to get this right is more than worth it.

By the way, did I also not mention that I did all polygraphite bushings and new upper and lower ball joints in April 2005?

 

Scooter 94, I bought the car used from a local dealer in 1999. The carfax at the time didn't show any indication of any major repair or insurance claim but who knows. If something is bent a bunch of people have missed it over the years.

 

I am not sure why you focus on caster, I vote that
you concentrate on camber and toe settings.

Some comments on the Before/After alignment values

Rear.FrontAs with an unsatisfactory restaurant meal, I think you should weigh
whether you want to return the car for another attempt at alignment.

Whether you return to this shop or hunt out another, I agree with the
remarks about taking in specs. I'll add that you should state that
you want the left and right settings to match or be close within a
small tolerance. Further, since front camber on a C4 is often
limited to well under -1º and the left side typically is more
camber-challenged than the right, I recommend telling them to set the
left front first and then match this on the right side.

If you present them with the FSM settings, the shop can't reasonably
try to charge you for special settings. Be aware the FSM values have
a pretty broad range of tolerence - so pick a target within the range.

If you arrive with non-OEM specs and insist on perfection, anticipate
a PITA surcharge.

If you hunt out another shop, talk to them. Show them your specs and
ask them to agree to work towards these. If they decline or if your
spidey sense tingles - politely excuse yourself and move on.

.

 

My appologies for mis-interpreting the toe setting (sign reversed).

Now this thread has got me wanting to tweak my toe again, as I noticed a very minor 1-2 degree steering wheel offset to the left, while driving this morning.

I should be able to correct by toeing in the rf just a bit. I think I have a bit too much total toe out already (maybe 3/16 total), so this should improve both issues.

Dang, I didn't bring my wrenches, with me, its gonna have to wait until later.

 

Oh boy, this is getting better. I called the shop just now and talked to the guy from last night (not the tech and not the owner). I told him thanks for staying last night to finish but that the balance was wrong. No problem, we can fix that he says. Then he asks me how the alignment is and I told him steering wheel off about 10* - 15*, car swerves left, not happy with the rear alignment and about that left side caster and camber..... He interupts and says I'm looking at about a grand to get it right. I asked him why and he says just to get to the shims takes about four hours of labor - MINIMUM. wtf?? Granted, the left side is a bit more difficult than the right side but we're still only talking five minutes - tops.

So I told him just that. He didn't want to hear that. Tough. I'll be bringing the car back first thing (and I mean first thing) Saturday. I'm pretty sure they can at least get the tires balanced. Pretty sure. After that I guess I get to pay to teach them how to set caster and camber on a C4.

It just shouldn't have to be this hard.

 

Could it be possible that the worn tires are causing the problem? Worn tire edges vs road crown ? How about seeing if you could swap the rears to front drive around the block,without turn locking the fronts and see?
You could check the hubs and see how much play they have. Cracks in the springs,shocks bad?. I would try and take as many possibliities off the table as possible. Did they road force the tires? maybe you lost a weight on the rim or they forgot to replace a couple.

Good luck

Robin

 

Slalom4me, as I understand it (and the chances of me being wrong are pretty good!) caster has an effect on how the car wants to go straight and coming out of a turn how the car wants to return to straight as well as the general stability of the car over imperfections in the road surface. Caster affects camber in a turn. Slightly staggered caster also has an affect to counteract crowned roads. I definately am trying to concentrate on camber and toe as well.

The front toe change from before and after has definately moved in the right direction but maybe too far? Do I really want toe out with a hopefully soon to be nuetral camber and reasonable caster (add 1* positive on the left front)?

As for the FSM I will present that to them so they can learn how to adjust front caster and camber and rear camber, not for specs. I honestly think they don't know how to do it on a C4. The alignment printout has the exact same range of specs as the FSM. So I am going to be a minor pita and get what I think I want within factory specs.

And as with an unsatisfactory restaurant meal, I don't want to deal with this restaurant anymore but I left my wallet there and I have to go back and have another meal in order to get it. I'm trying not to insult the chef before he cooks my second meal!

 

Yup ... There is nothing I HATE more than having to take my car to the shop. Luckily, here in Dallas/Fort Worth I have located an excellent exhaust shop, excellent front end shop, excellent radiator shop and a pretty cheap upholstery shop (gotta keep an eye on him though). No great Mechanics or paint/body shops as of yet. If I were you, I would not spend another dime at that front end alignment place you are talking about. If it were gonna cost a grand to fix the car, was he honest and told you ... noooo, but he did take your money and did a **** poor job. As far as the steering wheel not being pointed straight, that just wrong. Sounds like he is a scammer, like alot of other shops. Cut your loses and go elsewhere. I like to walk into the place of business and state my problem (kinda act like I have no idea what is going on) and see how they respond. Always, always, always ask for an estimate and find out if estimate is free first. Last garage I called wanted $75 to look at it (not fix anything, just look at it)!! Once you meet them and hear what they gotta say, you usually have a pretty good idea if they are professionals or not. Good luck and keep us posted. What was this shops name and city? We can put him on the blacklist,lol

 

zrracer, these are brand new, just mounted yesterday tires to replace the worn out rubber. I can't swap front to rear because I'm using 275/45/17 on the front and 315/35/17 on the rear. Bearings are good. Springs were fine when I did the polygraphite bushings throughout last April. FX3 shocks were rebuilt by Bilstein to Morroco valving, new poly bushings and a new controller last April as well. Yeah, I had to replace two actuators (ouch). I paid for a road force balance but it is completely wrong. I asked for no weights on the outside of the wheels which means you get little sticky lead weights inboard from the ouside edge and regular weights on the inboard side. They pealed off the old sticky weights but didn't put new weights back on. Additionally, the heavy spots on the tires are all over the place in relation to the valve stems. I think they need to start over with the balance on their Hunter machine.

 

purplewindworm, like I said this guy was not the owner and was not the tech. I honestly don't think he's trying to rip me off but I do honestly think he's a know nothing about C4's kinda guy. I heard that C3's are a royal pita but....

 

My take on this: It's the guy who did the actual alignment that screwed up.

My story mirrors yours somewhat.

I recently bought a 96 Coupe for my son and a couple of weeks ago I ordered a new set of 275-35-18s for it from TireRack. The front tires, especially the passenger side, showed excessive inside wear due to camber being off.

Took the car up to a GoodYear dealer here in DeSoto on Hampton Rd to have the new tires installed, balanced and a four wheel alignment done. Initial check shows all three, caster, camber and toe, were out of spec on both the front and the rear.

The car has chrome 18" wheels and they also call for stick-on inside weights.

A couple of hours and $119.95 later I picked it up and the difference was dramatic. Smooth, centered steering wheel, no pull to either side and tracks like it's on rails at high speeds.

I received a Before and After print-out too but don't have it in front of me now. After the alignment the maximum front to rear and side to side variance was 0.04, but I can't recall if it was front camber or toe or rear camber or toe.

Even with the most high tech equipment, an alignment is only as good as the guy turning the wrench.

Jake

BTW, changing shims on a C4 is SUPER SIMPLE and only takes a few minutes. When working on my 86, I've played with different shim packs so many times I've lost count.

 

Agreed

My point exactly!

 

In my -87, there is problem to get caster/camber to factory settings. This is because it is lowered, and shock tower goes in to the way of upper control arm. I hardly can get it to -0.25 setting.

I think newer control arms have decrease in middle, so they have more room to alignment.

 

Corf, the restaurant analogy refers to the case where a person
complains and returns the meal to the kitchen. The chef produces
a replacement meal and adds a little secret sauce before sending the
'new' meal out to the customer.

The toughest part of aligning a C4 is getting it on and off the
alignment rack. Caster, camber & toe are set the same way as
the fronts of Chevelles and Impalas were dialed in until struts came
along. Obviously the rear is a little more involved than back when
axles were solid, but it is still simple in this day.

Don't let yourself believe that you can teach these people anything.
I hesitated to write it in my first post but I feel you were given the
'Toe-and-go' treatment now that I've read their follow-up response.

Walk away from the payment so far. My vote is to not waste time
butting heads. Make a report of suspicious practices to the local BBB
- in time such reports add up. Look for a better shop to deal with.

Caster has some other consequences beside centering the steering
wheel. A C4 usually doesn't lack for caster, some people try to
reduce the caster to reduce C4 steering effort. This parameter is
third on my list for this car (it is more important on another car
that had low caster from the factory.)

AutoX & RR's attempt to get negative camber for better cornering
performance. The OEM range is limited to relatively little negative
camber, people make changes to increase the range. Using radial
tires since the 70's, modest amounts of negative camber have not
appreciably worn the insides of my tires.

Toe in/out can help steering response at events. It also kills tires
faster than either of the other two settings. For long tire life,
just enough toe to cause the tires to pull out slack in the linkage
and track straight ahead is optimium.

A simple tread wear gauge will help you monitor tire wear patterns.
There is no need to let things go until the tires are cupped, feathered
or otherwise excessively worn.

Pick some settings appropriate for your usage, find a reliable
alignment shop, deal with the technician who works on the car,
insist on before/after printouts, monitor tread wear, revise
your baseline settings to reflect wear readings and provide
the new specs at your next alignment.

.

 

Around here the rule of thumb is don't **** off the waitress until your meal is on the table!

Me too. But they still need to deal with the balance issue at a minimum. Funny thing is these guys road forced my last set when they were off the car and did a really nice job with the balance.

I may have that covered already! If this doesn't pan out on Saturday I might have a line on the real deal. I've been to four places since 2001 and it just shouldn't be this difficult. I went to these guys because like I said they did a great job with the last road force balance when the wheels were dropped off without the car.


Ordered!

Here are some things I need to get straightened out. The FSM says the transfer of one shim from the rear bolt to the front bolt where the shim is .79mm will increase positive caster about .36*. So you are making a 1.58mm change (minus .79mm on the rear and plus .79mm on the front) to make a .36* increase. My left front caster is 5.1* and I would like to see about 1* more caster. 3 times .36* is 1.08*. 5.1* + 1.08* is 6.18* and I want that to be my left side baseline. My shims are about 1/8" thick (I will measure them at work tomorrow with a caliper) on both the front and rear bolt on the left side. 1/8" is 3.175mm. I need to make a total change of 3 times 1.58mm or 4.74mm total. If I remove one 3.175mm shim from the back bolt and add one 1.565mm shim on the front bolt have I just fixed the caster problem and ended up with 6.18*? That would be fantastic. Left front caster at 6.18* and right front caster at 6.4*! What happens to camber if I fab up a shim and have the guy put it in? There has to be some calculator or formulas that a real alignment guy uses to figure this stuff out.

Do I really want negative toe (toe out)? No matter how small the toe in, wouldn't 0* toe to something really small positive toe be more stable on the street than negative toe?

On the rear specs, for a baseline don't I want right and left camber at least to be the same sign (both positive or both negative or both 0) and the same for toe (either both positive or both negative or both 0)? I think I want a little bit of negative camber and a little bit of toe in.

Thanks for your replies!!

 

I don't know if these will help, but here is an spec from Vette Brakes and Power.

http://www.vbandp.com/instructions/h...ruct/align.htm

 

Dude, it's time to cut your losses with these guys-don't walk, run away from that shop! I've been there too and I now do my own alignments along with every thing else. Invest in a book to learn the basics, a simple toe "gauge" tool-jc whitney has them, and a smartcamber tool made by watkins and if you want to get fancy a set of "turnbuckle" plates and a box of shims and you can tweak all you want! With a lowered 86 I run stock caster, camber neg .4 deg all around slight toe in, 35lbs air press. I get a bit of wear on the inside from the neg camber but handles great and is a good compromise setting for daily driver.