Port heads or replace them
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 13,949
Likes: 705
From: WI
TA there would be a gain with porting. As shown with Vic's times above. Would you do any of the work yourself? You could do some clean up then take it to a shop for a valve job.
AGENT 86 could I ask what you paid for that valve job? I remember seeing the pictures you posted, nice work!
I have been considering this same idea. I was thinking that I would do clean up and minor work on the heads then take the heads in for a valve job. I am not sure what the cost on that is though. I would need the valve work, plus parts, larger valves, guides ands seals. The cost makes me wonder if buying a reasonable head ($1000ish) would be more cost effective.
AGENT 86 could I ask what you paid for that valve job? I remember seeing the pictures you posted, nice work!
I have been considering this same idea. I was thinking that I would do clean up and minor work on the heads then take the heads in for a valve job. I am not sure what the cost on that is though. I would need the valve work, plus parts, larger valves, guides ands seals. The cost makes me wonder if buying a reasonable head ($1000ish) would be more cost effective.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,094
Likes: 282
From: Phila., PA burbs
It seems the consensus is that ported stockers would likely be sufficient for my project, but the cost would probably be similar to getting a new set of heads. Then there's also the advantage that new heads would be able to be used if a future build comes along.
I guess my first step is gonna be to talk to few engine guys in the area that I trust and see whats its gonna cost to work my heads. Then if the price is too high it'll be time to look at new heads. Then I guess I'll be on to the next question...........which heads
But thats a whole new can of worms.
Thanks for all the comments guys.
I guess my first step is gonna be to talk to few engine guys in the area that I trust and see whats its gonna cost to work my heads. Then if the price is too high it'll be time to look at new heads. Then I guess I'll be on to the next question...........which heads
But thats a whole new can of worms.Thanks for all the comments guys.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,036
Likes: 13
From: Edmonton AB
Looking at my goals for the car and the set-up that will be in the car
am I best off reworking my stock 113 heads (some porting, maybe
larger valves) or going with some aftermarket heads. I really don't see
any big plans for builds in the future so I don't want more head than I
need. I know there's a vast amount of aftermarket heads out there,
but I'm wondering if my current heads re-worked a bit would get me
where I want to be.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
am I best off reworking my stock 113 heads (some porting, maybe
larger valves) or going with some aftermarket heads. I really don't see
any big plans for builds in the future so I don't want more head than I
need. I know there's a vast amount of aftermarket heads out there,
but I'm wondering if my current heads re-worked a bit would get me
where I want to be.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
The AFR 180 Eliminator and Trick Flow 23º 175 numbers come from their
respective manufacturers.
0.200". - 0.300". - 0.400". - 0.500".
120/096. 160/123 . 186/140 . 196/155. - 163cc (L98 TPI w/58cc & 1.94/1.50)
127/109. 180/142 . 219/167 . 242/181. - 175cc (Trick Flow 23º 175 w/ 56cc & 1.94/1.50)
129/108. 195/156 . 240/178 . 255/190. - 180cc (AFR 180 Eliminator w/68cc & 2.02/1.60)
144/121. 208/157 . 244/188 . 262/202. - 191cc (AFR 190 w/ 76cc & 2.02/1.60)
Something to keep in mind when comparing different heads. The
CHP data shows that flow often diminishes as chamber size gets
smaller on different models of the same head. So consider this
when looking at numbers for heads from different mfrs.
If head 'A' with a 69cc chamber flows more than head 'B' with a 61cc
chamber, don't assume you can get head A, mill it down to your
desired chamber size and still see the same flow capacity - the
CHP results suggest that flow will drop.
I looked at suitability, performance, availability, member's reports
about their experiences w/ different shops & mfrs and then made a
decision to buy new heads that will work on my '89 out of the box.
Back when it was popular to polish the insides of blocks and before
aluminum heads were attainable for mortals, I used up a lot of emery
cloth on BBC iron heads and blocks. I no longer care to do this kind
of work or have a facility to accomodate the mess it makes.
Originally Posted by Spankyellow
Do you have a reliable shop you trust to do machine work ? Are you
going to have the heads completely redone ? It can cost as much as
new heads. I bought new heads because I have had too many bad
experiences with the local shops.
going to have the heads completely redone ? It can cost as much as
new heads. I bought new heads because I have had too many bad
experiences with the local shops.
for some simple work that should have taken two weeks, but this
is another story.
.
Last edited by Slalom4me; Mar 16, 2007 at 12:12 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,870
Likes: 25
From: Long Island, NY
Tom,
I'll provide some data and information that I have personnally collected,observed, and verified over the years.
A set of professionally ported 113 Corvette heads can absolutely keep up with a set of aftermarket heads on a 350 or 383 ci motor. I have witnessed multiple Vettes\Fbodies with Ported 113 heads run real well (114-120 MPH). All of them had Lingenfelter or TPIS do their heads.
Now, the real issue comes to cost. Lingenfelter and TPIS want about $1500 - $1700 for the work and you have to send in your heads. The aftermarket heads outright are between $1300 - $1600, and then you can sell your stock heads to recoup some money.
Also, the 113's will not flow much at all, but they will produce solid results. They use small ports and high velocity to create the power.
Mine have been ported my TPIS and so far have gone 115+ mph, and I am shooting for 118+ mph.
Vic
I'll provide some data and information that I have personnally collected,observed, and verified over the years.
A set of professionally ported 113 Corvette heads can absolutely keep up with a set of aftermarket heads on a 350 or 383 ci motor. I have witnessed multiple Vettes\Fbodies with Ported 113 heads run real well (114-120 MPH). All of them had Lingenfelter or TPIS do their heads.
Now, the real issue comes to cost. Lingenfelter and TPIS want about $1500 - $1700 for the work and you have to send in your heads. The aftermarket heads outright are between $1300 - $1600, and then you can sell your stock heads to recoup some money.
Also, the 113's will not flow much at all, but they will produce solid results. They use small ports and high velocity to create the power.
Mine have been ported my TPIS and so far have gone 115+ mph, and I am shooting for 118+ mph.
Vic
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,642
Likes: 5
From: One day you're a Comet...the next day you're dust... Arkansas
It seems the consensus is that ported stockers would likely be sufficient for my project, but the cost would probably be similar to getting a new set of heads. Then there's also the advantage that new heads would be able to be used if a future build comes along.
I guess my first step is gonna be to talk to few engine guys in the area that I trust and see whats its gonna cost to work my heads. Then if the price is too high it'll be time to look at new heads. Then I guess I'll be on to the next question...........which heads But thats a whole new can of worms.
Thanks for all the comments guys.
I guess my first step is gonna be to talk to few engine guys in the area that I trust and see whats its gonna cost to work my heads. Then if the price is too high it'll be time to look at new heads. Then I guess I'll be on to the next question...........which heads
But thats a whole new can of worms.Thanks for all the comments guys.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,036
Likes: 13
From: Edmonton AB
AFR 180cc SBC Eliminator Street Cylinder Head
"These heads feature a 75cc or 65cc combustion chamber"
TA's '91 L98 engine currently has 58cc chambers. Are the AFR
108 Eliminators optionally available with chambers smaller than 65cc?
Does this cost extra &/or take longer to deliver? Or is it necessary
to have the heads milled by a third party in order to restore OEM-like
compression after the head swap?
Also - at the bottom of the page
"Note: Milling head deck will affect flow numbers"
.
"These heads feature a 75cc or 65cc combustion chamber"
TA's '91 L98 engine currently has 58cc chambers. Are the AFR
108 Eliminators optionally available with chambers smaller than 65cc?
Does this cost extra &/or take longer to deliver? Or is it necessary
to have the heads milled by a third party in order to restore OEM-like
compression after the head swap?
Also - at the bottom of the page
"Note: Milling head deck will affect flow numbers"
.
Last edited by Slalom4me; Mar 16, 2007 at 04:45 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 16,836
Likes: 337
From: Database Error Indiana
Pretty good info here. I like the fact that stock heads can be made to get the job done. Most aftermaket heads are a safe bet for good perfomance. Just stay away from cheap imports.
TA, be sure and let us know what you decide.
TA, be sure and let us know what you decide.
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Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,094
Likes: 282
From: Phila., PA burbs
I went onto the TPIS site and they have the ported L98 heads priced at $1250 (with your heads), but as you pointed out I could get into decent aftermarket heads for a bit more and still have mine to sell. I'll pick your brain a little bit at the next challenge event if thats cool.
Thanks for all the comments guys.
As Slalom pointed out most of the aftermarket heads I'd be considering have larger combustion chambers. Take the AFR 180s for example at 68cc. I take it I wouldn't want to bolt these right on the car, but how much would they change the CR if I did? I'd hate to make the decision to buy a $1500 set of heads and then need to spend extra money to get them to work with my car.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,695
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Illinois
First a little background on my car. Its an L98 with most (if not all) of the bolt-on type mods including Accel intake, AS&M runners, ported plenum, LT headers, 1.6 RRs, etc, etc, etc. Its a relatively strong runner considering the mods I have done to it as it normally sees high 12s at the track in normal weather and down to mid 12s in great weather.
As of now the car is stock heads/cam, but shortly I'll be buying an LPE 219 cam from Vic'89. So in the not too distant future this cam will be going in the car and I'm figuring it will be a good time to do something with the heads as well. All other parts are going back on the car, meaning I'm keeping the LTR set-up. I could see possibly going to a SR down the road, but for now I'm thinking it will run fairly decent with the current intake, plus I'm curious about how quick the car will run while still retaining this set-up.
My goals are simply to get the car to run quicker in the 1/4 without a huge amount of money. I'd like to see the car running in the mid 12s consistently and low 12s in good weather (high 11s would be cool too ) I'm really not looking for anything wild, just a street car that holds its own at the track.
Looking at my goals for the car and the set-up that will be in the car am I best off reworking my stock 113 heads (some porting, maybe larger valves) or going with some aftermarket heads. I really don't see any big plans for builds in the future so I don't want more head than I need. I know there's a vast amount of aftermarket heads out there, but I'm wondering if my current heads re-worked a bit would get me where I want to be.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
T.A.
As of now the car is stock heads/cam, but shortly I'll be buying an LPE 219 cam from Vic'89. So in the not too distant future this cam will be going in the car and I'm figuring it will be a good time to do something with the heads as well. All other parts are going back on the car, meaning I'm keeping the LTR set-up. I could see possibly going to a SR down the road, but for now I'm thinking it will run fairly decent with the current intake, plus I'm curious about how quick the car will run while still retaining this set-up.
My goals are simply to get the car to run quicker in the 1/4 without a huge amount of money. I'd like to see the car running in the mid 12s consistently and low 12s in good weather (high 11s would be cool too
) I'm really not looking for anything wild, just a street car that holds its own at the track. Looking at my goals for the car and the set-up that will be in the car am I best off reworking my stock 113 heads (some porting, maybe larger valves) or going with some aftermarket heads. I really don't see any big plans for builds in the future so I don't want more head than I need. I know there's a vast amount of aftermarket heads out there, but I'm wondering if my current heads re-worked a bit would get me where I want to be.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
T.A.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,187
Likes: 309
From: SIMSBURY CT
St. Jude Donor '07 thru '25
I was searching some old posts recently and read about a guy in Texas, Lloyd Elliot ("eportworks" or something like that as I recall), who presumeably did very good work on heads. I never could find a website for him or his company. Anyone know?
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 13,949
Likes: 705
From: WI
There was just a huge thread on him. Search for his name for topics.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,094
Likes: 282
From: Phila., PA burbs
Here's the thread. Looks like most of the discussion is about LT1/4 heads.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...t=Lloyd+Elliot
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,870
Likes: 25
From: Long Island, NY
I went onto the TPIS site and they have the ported L98 heads priced at $1250 (with your heads), but as you pointed out I could get into decent aftermarket heads for a bit more and still have mine to sell. I'll pick your brain a little bit at the next challenge event if thats cool.
I have the flow sheet from my heads also that I could share with you.
We can discuss more at the CC.
BTW, no roll bar needed till 11.50 now, which is very helpful.
You will dip into the 11's.
Vic
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 28
From: Baltimore MD
Way too many people get way too caught up in flow numbers and/or dyno numbers...As you've proven, you don't need the biggest and baddest of everything (on paper) to run exceptionally well.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,991
Likes: 5
From: The Pines South Jersey
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 81,241
Likes: 3,063
From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
You dont need 300 cfm or anywhere near that for a TPI to run hard. I am biased to aftermarket heads, but if you wanna keep costs down go ahead and port yours ifyou can keep the total cost of EVERYthing (guides, valve job) under a grand. Slovers porting service (old roundy rounder out here) will do a number on them for $750. I wouldnt recommed porting heads especially 113s yourself if youve never done it. THey have a kind of tight intake port to them, would be difficult for a first timer. Theres a LOT more to porting than what the back of a standard abrasives package says.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,036
Likes: 13
From: Edmonton AB
Uhm, why pay $1250 to have used heads reworked? Just what flow
values do LPE and TPiS quote for ported 113's, anyway. Not only the
peak values, the whole series across the board.
Has anyone looked at the Trick Flow 175's? Priced them? Considered
the bang/buck?
Anyone?
The most expensive pair of TFS 175's at Summit costs less than the
$1250 port job mentioned above. The basic ones are hundreds less.
What am I missing here? Time after time, people turn up their nose
at these things and I don't understand why.
I'll add that I've got nothing against the AFR 180 Eliminator's - aside
from the point that, out of the box, they are not a direct replacement
for the 113 because of the chamber size. I imagine AFR could change
this easily by offering a version with a smaller chamber.
.
values do LPE and TPiS quote for ported 113's, anyway. Not only the
peak values, the whole series across the board.
Has anyone looked at the Trick Flow 175's? Priced them? Considered
the bang/buck?
Anyone?
The most expensive pair of TFS 175's at Summit costs less than the
$1250 port job mentioned above. The basic ones are hundreds less.
What am I missing here? Time after time, people turn up their nose
at these things and I don't understand why.
I'll add that I've got nothing against the AFR 180 Eliminator's - aside
from the point that, out of the box, they are not a direct replacement
for the 113 because of the chamber size. I imagine AFR could change
this easily by offering a version with a smaller chamber.
.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 21,094
Likes: 282
From: Phila., PA burbs
What about this as a lower priced alternative?
http://www.adperformance.com/index.p...roducts_id=546
BTW, I have also been taking a look at the TFS 175s
http://www.adperformance.com/index.p...roducts_id=546
BTW, I have also been taking a look at the TFS 175s
Last edited by TA; Mar 17, 2007 at 08:48 PM.