89 vette won't start!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,240
Likes: 41
From: Baltimore, MD USA
Was your drain hose for the gas filler cap clogged?
Water would settle to the bottom of the tank. If he cranked the engine and the fuel system was pressurized with water, it would take some time to purge it all out.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,043
Likes: 8
From: Tampa Florida
I gave up on the overflow drain hose a long time ago... had the old water in the gas problem a few years back, so I cut the lower right coner off of the rubber overflow thingy that wraps around the tank's fill tube. Water, gas, or whatever "should" run off before it gets a chance to get into the tank.
The cap also has a locking cap on it....to keep out the riff-raff & pranksters.
And yes, good fuel comes out when the shrader is depressed -- just say to no H2O.
I also put in a fuel additive that contained alcohol to remove any trace of water that I might have missed from the siphion trick.
The cap also has a locking cap on it....to keep out the riff-raff & pranksters.
And yes, good fuel comes out when the shrader is depressed -- just say to no H2O.
I also put in a fuel additive that contained alcohol to remove any trace of water that I might have missed from the siphion trick.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 2
From: seattle WA
You said the injector harness pulsed.....the proper way to check injectors for pulsing is using a noid light, which one of the guys suggested, and that's how I checked mine...individually, I think SunCR says you can use a test light. But, tell us how you confirmed the injectors were pulsing, that may help us. Another thing is someone suggested ECM or ICM, the ICM can be tested at Autozone...I know of NO one who tests the ECM. BUT, the ECM receives the signal from the pickup coil to pulse the injectors, and you can test the pickup coil with an OHM meter. One way or another this is a fuel delivery problem...you've proven that with the starting fluid.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,043
Likes: 8
From: Tampa Florida
I have tried disconecting the battery ( for 1 min.) same results...still a no go.
To test the injectors I used a digital multimeter... all injectors were between 16.4 and 16.8 ohms. I also used my fuel Injector/harness tester to manually fire the injectors (all of which worked) and test the pulses coming from the harness (showed the pulsing output on the led)
Link to photo of Injection harness tester:
To test the injectors I used a digital multimeter... all injectors were between 16.4 and 16.8 ohms. I also used my fuel Injector/harness tester to manually fire the injectors (all of which worked) and test the pulses coming from the harness (showed the pulsing output on the led)
Link to photo of Injection harness tester:
Last edited by engle1147; Jul 10, 2007 at 03:03 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 2
From: seattle WA
Looks like a nice tool, I've only used a noid light to check for pulses, and the ohm meter for checking the injector coils. But what's obvious here is a fuel delivery problem since ether or starting fluid keeps the engine running. HAVE you tried applying the 12 volts to pin G on the ALDL? I think that is an important step for you, momentarily forget about the fuel pressure at the rail..just try it, you won't hurt a thing and it could help isolate the problem.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,043
Likes: 8
From: Tampa Florida
Rick, I did apply the 12v to the G terminal on the ADL..(nice trick)..the relay clicked and I have 40 something psi on the fuel rail I also walked to the back of the car and could hear the fuel pump constantly running in the tank.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,753
Likes: 9
From: Louisiana
Looks like there is no fuel combusting. It is a fuel problem if spraying starting fluid in the intake will keep the car running. Have you pulled the spark plugs to take a look? Do as Rick suggested and hot wire terminal G. This will keep the fuel pump running as you crank. You could have water in the lines and needs to be pumped out. You can also add a bottle of HEET to the gas tank, it want hurt.
EDIT: I'm a little late with this post. Have you checked cylinder compression?
EDIT: I'm a little late with this post. Have you checked cylinder compression?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 2
From: seattle WA
Interesting! obviously we're getting fuel to the rail, and we know we have spark because the engine runs fine while using starting fluid..right?
So, not being familiar with the injector tool you're using I need to ask this question.....did you need to disconnect each injector pigtail and check for the pulse there? here's what I'm getting at, it runs off starting fluid...so, that implies either the injectors are not pulsing or you have bad gas. I'm trying to eliminate the injectors as a problem, but quite honestly it's a problem if the fuel is infact good. If your just checking the injectors at the harness I think you need go further...making sure they are infact pulsing at the pigtails. Pigtail is the connection to each individual injector. I also think you need to pull a couple plugs, but I don't think you need to do the compression test yet!
So, not being familiar with the injector tool you're using I need to ask this question.....did you need to disconnect each injector pigtail and check for the pulse there? here's what I'm getting at, it runs off starting fluid...so, that implies either the injectors are not pulsing or you have bad gas. I'm trying to eliminate the injectors as a problem, but quite honestly it's a problem if the fuel is infact good. If your just checking the injectors at the harness I think you need go further...making sure they are infact pulsing at the pigtails. Pigtail is the connection to each individual injector. I also think you need to pull a couple plugs, but I don't think you need to do the compression test yet!
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,043
Likes: 8
From: Tampa Florida
Rick, I've got a friend coming over in a little while with a digital recorder...I'll get everthing (including the injector harness tests) on video and I'll attach it in my next post. If a picture is worth 1,000 words..video should be worth even more. Thanks!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,753
Likes: 9
From: Louisiana
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,240
Likes: 41
From: Baltimore, MD USA
You need to look at the injector pulse waveform with an osciloscope.
I'm guessing the ECM is not pulling the injector coils to ground due to a bad ground (high resistance) or the ECM is bad..
The ground for the ECM and a bunch of other items is on the 2nd bolt/stud on the driver side engine to bellhousing. The ground for the ECM is the same as Pin A on the diag. connector. You could measure the resistance of Pin A on the Diag. connector to the negative lead of the battery and it should be close to zero.
You were able to pull codes by grounding Pin A to Pin B, so the suggestion of a bad ground may be wrong.
Also is the Throttle Position Sensor voltage .54 vollts with the throttle body closed?
If all else fails, you can send me your ECM and I'll test it on my 89
or I can send you my ECM and you pay for shipping both ways.
I'm guessing the ECM is not pulling the injector coils to ground due to a bad ground (high resistance) or the ECM is bad..
The ground for the ECM and a bunch of other items is on the 2nd bolt/stud on the driver side engine to bellhousing. The ground for the ECM is the same as Pin A on the diag. connector. You could measure the resistance of Pin A on the Diag. connector to the negative lead of the battery and it should be close to zero.
You were able to pull codes by grounding Pin A to Pin B, so the suggestion of a bad ground may be wrong.
Also is the Throttle Position Sensor voltage .54 vollts with the throttle body closed?
If all else fails, you can send me your ECM and I'll test it on my 89
or I can send you my ECM and you pay for shipping both ways.
Last edited by Hooked on Vettes; Jul 9, 2007 at 03:22 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,043
Likes: 8
From: Tampa Florida
video of problem
Last edited by engle1147; Jul 10, 2007 at 03:27 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,043
Likes: 8
From: Tampa Florida
Started by replacing the least expensive stuff first:
Replaced the Ignition Control Module ($19.99)
Replaced the distributor cap ($14.95)
Replaced the Hei Coil ($56.96)
Replace the coil because it might be weak and the distributor cap....just because it was cheap I had to take it off any way.
Note on the coil -- I selected the Mallory coil (PART # 29212) because it was the least expensive of the few choices at the autoparts store. Turns out this thing was a real bitch to install because the housing covers the plug wires and hits the hood seal. Because of difficulty of installation do not recommed this coil as a first choice alternative replacement.
After replacing the parts the car still won't start!
Replaced the Ignition Control Module ($19.99)
Replaced the distributor cap ($14.95)
Replaced the Hei Coil ($56.96)
Replace the coil because it might be weak and the distributor cap....just because it was cheap I had to take it off any way.
Note on the coil -- I selected the Mallory coil (PART # 29212) because it was the least expensive of the few choices at the autoparts store. Turns out this thing was a real bitch to install because the housing covers the plug wires and hits the hood seal. Because of difficulty of installation do not recommed this coil as a first choice alternative replacement.
After replacing the parts the car still won't start!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,753
Likes: 9
From: Louisiana
I would be inclined to swap out the ECM with a known working one. Never hurts to have a spare laying around for troubleshooting purposes. If not swapping them out, try and pull the ECM down and check the connections.
*Just reread the last post. So, the engine was running before you swapped out the ICM, dist cap and coil and now it want start? If so, I would double check these.
*Just reread the last post. So, the engine was running before you swapped out the ICM, dist cap and coil and now it want start? If so, I would double check these.
Last edited by RRT vette; Jul 10, 2007 at 04:53 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,043
Likes: 8
From: Tampa Florida