First Intake Install?
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,029
Likes: 63
85L98: I am no First salesman so you will have to look for the info by yourself. But, all the info about this is available in CF and and 3rd gen forums if you are really interested.
Its a good intake for those who drive mostly on street, must have EGR and don't want to mess with their stock hood (not many options available to fit this bill). Might be the best option if you prefer to buy your kit new. If this didn't describe you then look elsewhere.
Its a good intake for those who drive mostly on street, must have EGR and don't want to mess with their stock hood (not many options available to fit this bill). Might be the best option if you prefer to buy your kit new. If this didn't describe you then look elsewhere.
Last edited by ToniH; Jan 11, 2008 at 11:48 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,029
Likes: 63
I agree with what you said in your posting before the quote. Different uses and different needs. No single intake solution is best for everybody.
About the installation, there is couple of minor issues I expect to have.
This we all know: you need to grind the distributor base a tiny bit to make it fit or swap to small cap. I hope to continue with the large cap. Don't expect this to be a big deal.
Another issue is the fact that mine is a S/D car and I do need the EGR. In First design the EGR and MAP brackets are placed to the same spot so only 1 fits at the time. Again not a big deal, I just need to install the MAP somewhere else but this is a thing I need to figure out when installing.
Also making some kind of air intake tube + air filter or optionally just plugging the filter straight to the TB. I plan to go with the tube+filter route, its cramped enough in there so taking the filter further away to somewhere close to original feels like a good idea and is pretty easy to make.
Other than that I don't expect any problems.
About the installation, there is couple of minor issues I expect to have.
This we all know: you need to grind the distributor base a tiny bit to make it fit or swap to small cap. I hope to continue with the large cap. Don't expect this to be a big deal.
Another issue is the fact that mine is a S/D car and I do need the EGR. In First design the EGR and MAP brackets are placed to the same spot so only 1 fits at the time. Again not a big deal, I just need to install the MAP somewhere else but this is a thing I need to figure out when installing.
Also making some kind of air intake tube + air filter or optionally just plugging the filter straight to the TB. I plan to go with the tube+filter route, its cramped enough in there so taking the filter further away to somewhere close to original feels like a good idea and is pretty easy to make.
Other than that I don't expect any problems.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Why is this intake "absolute garbage"? Mosy of us do our driving on the street and have autos. My understanding is the miniram that u tout on makes it's power up top (above 6000 rpm), where most street ,auto cars don't dwell. Sorry, but not all of us on here are only concerned with quarter mile spurts.
I'm going to have to apologize and leave this thread. I kinda assumed, based on all the research, arguments, data from *many years ago*,
and frankly a horse that was beaten to death back in the 90s that you guys knew more about this stuff. I keep forgetting where I am. I'm sorry.
If anyone wants to learn more about the FIRST stuff, search the alternative port EFI board over at TGO, especially regarding BadSS's tests. You'll find years of good information.
-- Joe
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,029
Likes: 63
Well I said I would not feed you any more but I need to comment this: I have read what BadSS has done and have discussed this with him in 2006 at TGO and now again in 2007 here in CF before I maid my decision to buy it. He seems to like First very much. In fact I have even discussed it with you in TGO in 2006, well you did post to my thread and gave couple of opinions about First fitting under C4 hood. At that point you didn't seem to hate First so much and said nothing negative about it.
Here is a quote from BadSS about one of his experiments:
I find that pretty positive and as 1/4 is not so big thing (at all) here where I live. My car is an A4 and I 99% drive on street I found the First to fit my bill perfectly. With decent heads and cam (+other usual mods) its going to be very nice. SR was another option but I didn't care about the quality and installation issues and now that they dropped it the choice was very easy for me.
I fail to find anything negative in BadSS's experiences. If there is any he sure hasn't shared.
Here is a quote from BadSS about one of his experiments:
I liked the StealthRam,, but missed the midrange rush of the old TPI - although I did like how the car could hook decently on street tires,, something impossible to do with the old TPI/SLP combo,,, and how well it ran from a kick. The FIRST is middle of the road,, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It moved the power band up a few hundred RPM compared to the fully ported TPI/SLP combo,,, but not as high as the StealthRam.
Power band wise:
TPI/SLP - off idle to 5500 rpm - high-12.9s@105mph
FIRST - 2000 - 5800 - mid-12.5s@107mph
HSR - 3000 - 6400 - low-12.6s@108
ETs are for similar conditions with temps in the high 80s
A buddy with a 13.0 LS car would pull ever so slightly away from me with the old TPI/SLP combo from a 60mph kick. I could blow his doors off with either the HSR or the FIRST - with the HSR being a steady even pull while the FIRST would really put it on him on the initial hit and kinda tapered off a bit. That same 13.0 car could hand over the TPI/SLP combo on street tires,, bad,, I could not hook the thing. Again,, with the StealthRam and the FIRST I could flat blow his doors off,,, but the FIRST was harder to hook. Like I said,, it all depends on what you're looking for. I never ran a ported FIRST on the IROC, but would have expected about a .12 reduction in ETs over the box stock FIRST with relatively minor port work / clean-up. Not that it's bad out of the box,,, it's just sized to a stock exit,, and it turns down into it. The injector bumps are also quite large and can be dang near flattened out.
Power band wise:
TPI/SLP - off idle to 5500 rpm - high-12.9s@105mph
FIRST - 2000 - 5800 - mid-12.5s@107mph
HSR - 3000 - 6400 - low-12.6s@108
ETs are for similar conditions with temps in the high 80s
A buddy with a 13.0 LS car would pull ever so slightly away from me with the old TPI/SLP combo from a 60mph kick. I could blow his doors off with either the HSR or the FIRST - with the HSR being a steady even pull while the FIRST would really put it on him on the initial hit and kinda tapered off a bit. That same 13.0 car could hand over the TPI/SLP combo on street tires,, bad,, I could not hook the thing. Again,, with the StealthRam and the FIRST I could flat blow his doors off,,, but the FIRST was harder to hook. Like I said,, it all depends on what you're looking for. I never ran a ported FIRST on the IROC, but would have expected about a .12 reduction in ETs over the box stock FIRST with relatively minor port work / clean-up. Not that it's bad out of the box,,, it's just sized to a stock exit,, and it turns down into it. The injector bumps are also quite large and can be dang near flattened out.
I fail to find anything negative in BadSS's experiences. If there is any he sure hasn't shared.
Last edited by ToniH; Jan 11, 2008 at 11:46 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 22,907
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From: Texas
CI 5-6-7-8-9 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09
Hostility and Personal Attacks
Guys - I'm not going to tolerate the hostility, name calling, bashing, and the constant badgering back and forth.
Either keep it nice or I'll close this down.
If you need a reminder on the rules - I've copied them for you.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1118172
Either keep it nice or I'll close this down.
If you need a reminder on the rules - I've copied them for you.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1118172
The Forum should be a place where we treat one another with civility so that it remains a fun and friendly place to hang around with other Corvette enthusiasts. Hostility to others is rude and inappropriate.
Personal attacks cannot be tolerated. Attack ideas, not fellow Forum members.
Personal attacks cannot be tolerated. Attack ideas, not fellow Forum members.
Last edited by Gray Fox; Jan 11, 2008 at 10:28 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Here
Pilot of Beer Force 1
Tampa Regional Coordinator
CI 4-5-6-7-8 Veteran
Organizer St. Jude Fundraiser
I believe in the Beer Fairy
If the guys ask for advice thats fine you can give your opinion without being a jerk...its not that hard really. Or if you have nothing nice to say just stay out of it.
If I have said it once I have said it 1000 times....just because its posted doesn't mean you have to reply.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Amarillo Tx
I am referring to a dyno chart posted on FIRST's site, and comparing that to trqe/hp curves on my 383, which has similar hp and tqe curves and similar components. The superram's numbers are also well documented in Lingenfelter's book, "Modifying Small Block Chevy Engines" (which is a very good read and very informative). The FIRST site also has a magazine comparison, done in the early 90's, comparing the FIRST to other popular intakes of that time. Hope this helps.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Amarillo Tx
. I referred to the miniram's documented gains, which is where alot of users won't use. In my application (and I suspect a lot of others considering this intake), a better intake would be either a superram or the FIRST, again with the caveat of considering the whole motor build and goals. "If" your goals are a 6000 rpm screamer, then I would agree, the minram is a better intake for that goal. That is not my goal. Also, to infer that because GM decided to go to a LT1 intake from a TPI, making a TPI style intake not worth the effort; is comparing apples to oranges. Two different motors and intakes, two different approaches. With that reasoning, then u could say (and I am not)the LT1 was a failure as GM then decided to go to an LS1 which again went back to longer runners.
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Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
GM then decided to go to an LS1 which again went back to longer runners.
They found with a good cylinder head (albeit big runners) you can have the best of both worlds...Acceptable street torque that can still blast up to redline.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
I never said the LT1 wasn't streetable . I referred to the miniram's documented gains, which is where alot of users won't use. In my application (and I suspect a lot of others considering this intake), a better intake would be either a superram or the FIRST, again with the caveat of considering the whole motor build and goals. "If" your goals are a 6000 rpm screamer, then I would agree, the minram is a better intake for that goal. That is not my goal. Also, to infer that because GM decided to go to a LT1 intake from a TPI, making a TPI style intake not worth the effort; is comparing apples to oranges. Two different motors and intakes, two different approaches. With that reasoning, then u could say (and I am not)the LT1 was a failure as GM then decided to go to an LS1 which again went back to longer runners.
. I referred to the miniram's documented gains, which is where alot of users won't use. In my application (and I suspect a lot of others considering this intake), a better intake would be either a superram or the FIRST, again with the caveat of considering the whole motor build and goals. "If" your goals are a 6000 rpm screamer, then I would agree, the minram is a better intake for that goal. That is not my goal. Also, to infer that because GM decided to go to a LT1 intake from a TPI, making a TPI style intake not worth the effort; is comparing apples to oranges. Two different motors and intakes, two different approaches. With that reasoning, then u could say (and I am not)the LT1 was a failure as GM then decided to go to an LS1 which again went back to longer runners.gains are only minimal over a STOCK setup, and ZERO over a ported/siamesed stock setup. So why spend the 1k?
And my second point was, if your going to change the heads + cam to something in a higher powerband, you're gonna want a shorter runner length anyhow.
But I appreciate your response without the personal attacks. It's nice to debate things in a friendly tone.
-- Joe
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 705
From: WI
There have been plenty of LTR setups on here that gained 20 HP, I would not consider that a waste of money. Especially if you can get an intake used. I only got into mine for $400, not bad for 20 HP.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
True, but where talking a whole different package now. Look at the cam profile, and the chamber shape, and ports on the heads. The cam is all about spiking cylinder pressure with no bleed off. Perfect for a slightly long tube setup. And I say slightly, because the LS1 is still way shorter than a TPI intake.
If I may quote some articles from about 10 years ago: "LS1 uses a tuned, intake port length as did the L98 of 1985-'91; however, LS1's 15-in. runner length is tuned for top-end power whereas L98s 21-in. runner was tuned for mid-range torque."
So as some other members suggested, we could derive the following facts:
1) TPI Setups are great for stock camshafts with less than 204 degrees
of intake duration at .050"
2) LT1/HSR/MINIRAM is great for upper-rpm power on higher compression engines and camshafts greater than 212 degrees
3) LS1's are the best of both worlds, and are often worth more in long
block form than an entire C4!
-- Joe
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Naturally aspirated, about 3-4 mph gain in the 1/4 from stock, to ported or siamesed. The aftermarket intake base was only useful because it could be ported to a 1205 port, and the runner ports opened up a little. And that was more of an average. Car ran about 96-97MPH with the stock
intake, right around 100-101mph. Infact, I think the fastest timeslip was 101.23MPH on a cold october night.
With the blower, ZERO gain. Stock, Stock ported, Aftermarket, siamesed ported, and I even had a set of DIY welded up runners.
Either way the car ran 110 mph with the blower. every pass.
The combo BTW was a comp 503 cam, 9:1, iron heads. The cam was
considered the 'biggest you should go with TPI'.
So now with the blower on it, we add a holley dominator manifold which I converted to EFI. I milled up an adapter bracket to run a vortec monoblade throttle body off a 4.3l truck. We're not talking anything amazing here. 1205 ports - just like the ported TPI. Car ran 119-120mph every pass.
Took the blower off, car ran 106 mph w/ just a K&N air filter.
I had a good friend of mine, who parallel to me did a lot of testing with a similar cam, TPI, ported TPI, then a converted LT1 manifold with similar gains.
-- Joe
Racer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: Amarillo Tx
[QUOTE=anesthes;1563575563]
"If your going to stick with stock heads + cam, then changing the intake is a waste of money" - Agree 100%, As previously mentioned, the "whole build/goal" should be considered.
"So why spend the 1k?" - Although more expensive than HSR, FIRST is still less expensive than superram and miniram, and includes fuel rails and other accesories that the others do not. I have a 383ci superram and am satisfied with it's performance. I am not satisfied with the ease of install or R&R just to replace injectors. Also don't like the asthetics of the superram, which is, admittedly, secondary. I have decided to purchase the FIRST and see how it compares for those reasons. If I don't like it, I'll sell it and stick w/ the superram. If I do, the superram goes. Miniram, while a good intake, is not what I am looking for, as I rarely see over 55-5800rpm. It is at that point, that it excells over other intakes. In addition, I find TPIS personnel to be haughty and snipish to potential customers. Won't do buisness w/ them, unless absolutely necessary.
"But I appreciate your response without the personal attacks. It's nice to debate things in a friendly tone." - Ditto,
"If your going to stick with stock heads + cam, then changing the intake is a waste of money" - Agree 100%, As previously mentioned, the "whole build/goal" should be considered.
"So why spend the 1k?" - Although more expensive than HSR, FIRST is still less expensive than superram and miniram, and includes fuel rails and other accesories that the others do not. I have a 383ci superram and am satisfied with it's performance. I am not satisfied with the ease of install or R&R just to replace injectors. Also don't like the asthetics of the superram, which is, admittedly, secondary. I have decided to purchase the FIRST and see how it compares for those reasons. If I don't like it, I'll sell it and stick w/ the superram. If I do, the superram goes. Miniram, while a good intake, is not what I am looking for, as I rarely see over 55-5800rpm. It is at that point, that it excells over other intakes. In addition, I find TPIS personnel to be haughty and snipish to potential customers. Won't do buisness w/ them, unless absolutely necessary.
"But I appreciate your response without the personal attacks. It's nice to debate things in a friendly tone." - Ditto,
Racer
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 311
Likes: 2
From: Roseburg OR
got mine yesterday
I have to say I'm impressed with the FIRST Manifold just out of the box. Clean, good castings, the fuel rails are better than pictured on the web site, extruded aluminum that just needs a little elbow grease to be polished, shame they are hidden under runners.
I studied the intakes, TPI is best for my driving, street Vette, spend a lot of time in 5th and 6th 1800 to 3000 RPM on the Freeway. Never been down an official drag strip and don't plan to. Rarely turn the motor past 5500. So Mini Ram was out.
Even though I read the stories of Super ram air leaks, I had been trying to find SR for good price, no luck. Not fast enough on the Forum or was outbid.
Also needed to replace my throttle body, butterfly shaft has a lot of play. compare the price of new manifold, fuel rails, and throttle body to the that of the complete FIRST unit. Bonus is the Stock FIRST flows as well as a ported SR.
The most bang for the buck I could find.
I studied the intakes, TPI is best for my driving, street Vette, spend a lot of time in 5th and 6th 1800 to 3000 RPM on the Freeway. Never been down an official drag strip and don't plan to. Rarely turn the motor past 5500. So Mini Ram was out.
Even though I read the stories of Super ram air leaks, I had been trying to find SR for good price, no luck. Not fast enough on the Forum or was outbid.
Also needed to replace my throttle body, butterfly shaft has a lot of play. compare the price of new manifold, fuel rails, and throttle body to the that of the complete FIRST unit. Bonus is the Stock FIRST flows as well as a ported SR.
The most bang for the buck I could find.
Last edited by carson; Jan 12, 2008 at 01:14 PM.
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,566
Likes: 4
From: Mt Laurel NJ
St. Jude Donor '06-'07
Sorry I haven't posted back here guy's, I've been sick w/ the flu.
Aardwolf, my questions are,
1.How hard/easy to install, how is the fit and finish?
2.What kind of fuel pressure reg are you using? What did you use to hook up the fuel lines? Any thing to look out for there? I once burnt up a Mustang w/ an electric fuel pump, and I don't want to do that to my vette.
3.Did you get everything you needed to do the install from FIRST? Any thing you needed from them that was not included?
4.Other that fuel lines and fuel reg, did you need to buy anything else?
5.How do the throttle cables fit on the new intake? any work to adapt them?
6.How do you like it? How does it run?
Thanks, Randy
Last edited by RandyJ75; Jan 11, 2008 at 04:58 PM.
