Stupid Cooling Question
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Myrtle Beach SC
St. Jude Donor '05-'06
So you have no useful info to provide him with? I too said to take a wait and see attitude.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Myrtle Beach SC
St. Jude Donor '05-'06
OK lets get a little technical.
350ci=43.7ci per cylinder
427ci=53.4ci per cylinder
That makes ~9.7ci increase in surface area in each cylinder which was more than I thought to begin with. All things being equal that means that is additional heat that will have to be dissipated around 20% more to be exact.
Now if we take that to mean more coolant to accomplish the same cooling per ci it would meant a 3.2 qt. increase over the 16qt radiator. That is the question will that increase be needed or can increased flow accomplish the same thing? Or can the current radiator do the job as it is?
350ci=43.7ci per cylinder
427ci=53.4ci per cylinder
That makes ~9.7ci increase in surface area in each cylinder which was more than I thought to begin with. All things being equal that means that is additional heat that will have to be dissipated around 20% more to be exact.
Now if we take that to mean more coolant to accomplish the same cooling per ci it would meant a 3.2 qt. increase over the 16qt radiator. That is the question will that increase be needed or can increased flow accomplish the same thing? Or can the current radiator do the job as it is?
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Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
What you're forgetting is the t-stat. Because it opens and closes to maintain temperature, we don't know if without the t-stat would the temp be lower than 160, 180, whatever.
So the issue is, will the 427 run the temps ABOVE 160, 180, whatever.
Because of the t-stat we don't know what temp the 350 would run without the t-stat.
So the issue is, will the 427 run the temps ABOVE 160, 180, whatever.
Because of the t-stat we don't know what temp the 350 would run without the t-stat.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Palm Beach
OK lets get a little technical.
350ci=43.7ci per cylinder
427ci=53.4ci per cylinder
That makes ~9.7ci increase in surface area in each cylinder which was more than I thought to begin with. All things being equal that means that is additional heat that will have to be dissipated around 20% more to be exact.
Now if we take that to mean more coolant to accomplish the same cooling per ci it would meant a 3.2 qt. increase over the 16qt radiator. That is the question will that increase be needed or can increased flow accomplish the same thing? Or can the current radiator do the job as it is?
350ci=43.7ci per cylinder
427ci=53.4ci per cylinder
That makes ~9.7ci increase in surface area in each cylinder which was more than I thought to begin with. All things being equal that means that is additional heat that will have to be dissipated around 20% more to be exact.
Now if we take that to mean more coolant to accomplish the same cooling per ci it would meant a 3.2 qt. increase over the 16qt radiator. That is the question will that increase be needed or can increased flow accomplish the same thing? Or can the current radiator do the job as it is?
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Thread Starter
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
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Race Director
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Hey Jsup,
This is off subject of your original questions,but wanted to ask if you ever heard of the evans cooling system?I read about it,but never seen it in use,personally.
http://www.evanscooling.com/main21.htm
Just something to add for thought.Wonder if anyone here has used it?Maybe something worth looking into.
This is off subject of your original questions,but wanted to ask if you ever heard of the evans cooling system?I read about it,but never seen it in use,personally.
http://www.evanscooling.com/main21.htm
Just something to add for thought.Wonder if anyone here has used it?Maybe something worth looking into.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Hey Jsup,
This is off subject of your original questions,but wanted to ask if you ever heard of the evans cooling system?I read about it,but never seen it in use,personally.
http://www.evanscooling.com/main21.htm
Just something to add for thought.Wonder if anyone here has used it?Maybe something worth looking into.
This is off subject of your original questions,but wanted to ask if you ever heard of the evans cooling system?I read about it,but never seen it in use,personally.
http://www.evanscooling.com/main21.htm
Just something to add for thought.Wonder if anyone here has used it?Maybe something worth looking into.
I have not heard of Evans, I'll look at it. Problem is every time I click a link for some cool hi-performance stuff, it costs me money, and lots of it.
I looked at the website. Their marketing is nice, but I am a skeptic about something I know nothing about. I figure if it were that good, we'd all know about it. Don't know.
Last edited by jsup; Aug 24, 2008 at 07:21 AM.
Race Director
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I read you plan on a trans cooler inline with the main radiator. I figure that will take some of the load off the main. However, I don't recall your posting anything about an oil cooler and I know you have considered it. Please share your thoughts on an oil cooler.
<edit>I didn't mean to come off as taking a pro-oil cooler or anti-oil cooler stance. I just want to learn from my betters. And if you ever do learn how to sht money I'll line up to take you to Taco Bell
</edit>
<edit>I didn't mean to come off as taking a pro-oil cooler or anti-oil cooler stance. I just want to learn from my betters. And if you ever do learn how to sht money I'll line up to take you to Taco Bell
</edit>
Last edited by 94z07fx3; Aug 24, 2008 at 08:36 AM.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Additionally, despite what many think, a conversation with PeteK that the stock oil cooler is good for about 20 degrees.
An oil cooler will be one of those wait and see things. Good news is that the car does have an oil temp gauge, which, will tell me where I stand. Nice to have an oil cooler, but I have yet to figure out how to sht money.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,286
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From: Palm Beach
From the net:
The more horsepower an engine makes the more cooling capacity it will need whether moving or not! More horsepower requires more fuel and more fuel makes more heat. You lose about 33% of your engine�s energy in heat carried away by the cooling system. It�s obvious to most that a higher hp engine at higher RPMs will need a cooling capacity to befit the additional power, but what a lot of rodders overlook is that even at idle, fuel circuits are utilizing small amounts of fuel and changes that improve horsepower will likely dictate small incremental changes (more) at idle, resulting in the production of more waste heat. This is especially true with cams that require higher idle speeds by design. So plan accordingly for more radiator or more flow and/or hopefully both when you add your horsepower goodies!
Never use over a 50/50 mix of water to antifreeze ratio.� Adding antifreeze to water will protect against boiling and/or freezing, but reduces the water�s ability to absorb heat.� Pure water as we have learned is the very best heat carrier and antifreeze significantly compromises heat absorption. In warmer climates, a 25%antifreeze to water ratio is sufficient enough for most applications for minimal protection for corrosion, boiling and freezing
There are three basic parameters that determine cooling efficiency: radiator surface area, coolant speed through the system, and the amount of airflow through the radiator. These three functions determine the efficiency of the system as expressed in Btu of heat rejection per minute
The more horsepower an engine makes the more cooling capacity it will need whether moving or not! More horsepower requires more fuel and more fuel makes more heat. You lose about 33% of your engine�s energy in heat carried away by the cooling system. It�s obvious to most that a higher hp engine at higher RPMs will need a cooling capacity to befit the additional power, but what a lot of rodders overlook is that even at idle, fuel circuits are utilizing small amounts of fuel and changes that improve horsepower will likely dictate small incremental changes (more) at idle, resulting in the production of more waste heat. This is especially true with cams that require higher idle speeds by design. So plan accordingly for more radiator or more flow and/or hopefully both when you add your horsepower goodies!
Never use over a 50/50 mix of water to antifreeze ratio.� Adding antifreeze to water will protect against boiling and/or freezing, but reduces the water�s ability to absorb heat.� Pure water as we have learned is the very best heat carrier and antifreeze significantly compromises heat absorption. In warmer climates, a 25%antifreeze to water ratio is sufficient enough for most applications for minimal protection for corrosion, boiling and freezing
There are three basic parameters that determine cooling efficiency: radiator surface area, coolant speed through the system, and the amount of airflow through the radiator. These three functions determine the efficiency of the system as expressed in Btu of heat rejection per minute
Last edited by MK 82; Aug 24, 2008 at 10:26 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Myrtle Beach SC
St. Jude Donor '05-'06
Oh excuse me I should have said volume and that 20% increase in volume equates exactly to the 20% increase in surface area. I just did not want to do the calcs for surface since I do not know the diameter of the cylinder and stroke. Do you have those figures or could you do them for us?
Le Mans Master
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From: The Old Dominion
Like MK 82 said, it's the horsepower. If you piddle along at cruise, a 427 probably doesn't need much more cooling than a 350, as it's not making much power nor much heat. And a 500hp 427 probably doesn't need much more cooling than a 500hp 350.
There's a decent chance the stock radiator won't be enough for a 500hp engine though. But it probably depends on how you drive it.
I doubt anyone can tell you exactly how much cooling you need. But also, it doesn't really matter. If you need 12.7258% more cooling than the stock radiator can handle, or you need 7.65982% more, well there are only a couple aftermarket rad choices anyway.
If you are concerned about costs, why not see how the stock unit does? If it doesn't cut it, you'll just have to drive the car easy until you can afford a bigger radiator.
To your analogy, though, yeah it's terrible. Gas burns at a temp, but you are trying to remove that heat it is making. So the fact it's the same temp is irrelevant.
Imagine you had to provide ice to cool boiling water down to 100F. A cup of boiling water is the same temp as a gallon of boiling water. But it will take a heck of a lot more ice to cool the latter down.
There's a decent chance the stock radiator won't be enough for a 500hp engine though. But it probably depends on how you drive it.
I doubt anyone can tell you exactly how much cooling you need. But also, it doesn't really matter. If you need 12.7258% more cooling than the stock radiator can handle, or you need 7.65982% more, well there are only a couple aftermarket rad choices anyway.
If you are concerned about costs, why not see how the stock unit does? If it doesn't cut it, you'll just have to drive the car easy until you can afford a bigger radiator.
To your analogy, though, yeah it's terrible. Gas burns at a temp, but you are trying to remove that heat it is making. So the fact it's the same temp is irrelevant.
Imagine you had to provide ice to cool boiling water down to 100F. A cup of boiling water is the same temp as a gallon of boiling water. But it will take a heck of a lot more ice to cool the latter down.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Palm Beach
OK lets do the math.
1 HP = 42.44 BTUs/MIN
300 HP = 12732 BTUs/MIN
600 HP = 25464 BTUs/MIN
Assuming that 33% of that heat is waste and must be removed by the cooling system.
300 HP reguires 4201 BTU/MIN capacity
600 HP requires 8403 BTU/MIN capacity
Survey says 100% increase.
What the capability of the stock system is--I don't know
But I doubt there is that much reserve capacity.
1 HP = 42.44 BTUs/MIN
300 HP = 12732 BTUs/MIN
600 HP = 25464 BTUs/MIN
Assuming that 33% of that heat is waste and must be removed by the cooling system.
300 HP reguires 4201 BTU/MIN capacity
600 HP requires 8403 BTU/MIN capacity
Survey says 100% increase.
What the capability of the stock system is--I don't know
But I doubt there is that much reserve capacity.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
From a PM I received:
Thought it was interesting enough to post. 
You have to admit, he makes dam strong points.
hey john.. again you started a great thread. The extra heat does not get abrobed in the engine 100%. the better the engine scavages the cylinders the cooler it will run. with head work etc., your new engine will have a much higher volumetric efficiency rating than some stock gm **** engine, no one is thinking that the engine releases exhaust. what is this a home heating unit that we worry about BTU rating.
Our RACECAR (my edit) runs at 190 all the time with a small radiator from a Nissan meanwhile we make over 1200hp. The key to a cooling system is to keep the flow choked so the coolant stays in the rad long enough for the air to cool it before it gets to the engine again. their theory would be correct if we we using a fking ac system where we go from gas to condensed liquid back to gas through a compressor where all the compressed liquid is super heated then cooled back to a liquid, ask the guy how much of that cylinder temp is being exhausted. Top fuel dragsters stay cool making 3000 hp with a tiny radiator.. did you ever see a radiator from a mack truck on the front of a nascar circle car. they use radiators smaller than yours and run 500 mile races. Tell these guys to blow it out their asses.
Our RACECAR (my edit) runs at 190 all the time with a small radiator from a Nissan meanwhile we make over 1200hp. The key to a cooling system is to keep the flow choked so the coolant stays in the rad long enough for the air to cool it before it gets to the engine again. their theory would be correct if we we using a fking ac system where we go from gas to condensed liquid back to gas through a compressor where all the compressed liquid is super heated then cooled back to a liquid, ask the guy how much of that cylinder temp is being exhausted. Top fuel dragsters stay cool making 3000 hp with a tiny radiator.. did you ever see a radiator from a mack truck on the front of a nascar circle car. they use radiators smaller than yours and run 500 mile races. Tell these guys to blow it out their asses.
You have to admit, he makes dam strong points.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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http://www.stewartcomponents.com/Tech_Tips.htm
Never hurts to ask people who's entire gig is cooling.
If you want to make cooling an olympic sport, asking people whose car has to operate for maybe 30 seconds, isnt exactly productive. Their rides dont need long term cooling like a big hauler or endurance car is going to need.
I expect you will be fine with a stock radiator, and a good quality water pump for street driving and the occasional drag race.
Never hurts to ask people who's entire gig is cooling.
If you want to make cooling an olympic sport, asking people whose car has to operate for maybe 30 seconds, isnt exactly productive. Their rides dont need long term cooling like a big hauler or endurance car is going to need.
I expect you will be fine with a stock radiator, and a good quality water pump for street driving and the occasional drag race.
Last edited by Guru_4_hire; Aug 24, 2008 at 05:01 PM.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
http://www.stewartcomponents.com/Tech_Tips.htm
Never hurts to ask people who's entire gig is cooling.
If you want to make cooling an olympic sport, asking people whose car has to operate for maybe 30 seconds, isnt exactly productive. Their rides dont need long term cooling like a big hauler or endurance car is going to need.
I expect you will be fine with a stock radiator, and a good quality water pump for street driving and the occasional drag race.
Never hurts to ask people who's entire gig is cooling.
If you want to make cooling an olympic sport, asking people whose car has to operate for maybe 30 seconds, isnt exactly productive. Their rides dont need long term cooling like a big hauler or endurance car is going to need.
I expect you will be fine with a stock radiator, and a good quality water pump for street driving and the occasional drag race.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,286
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From: Palm Beach
Granted, for what length of time would you be making 600 HP?
We'll see.
P.S. Tell MR PM to put it out in the open and we will debate it.
Last edited by MK 82; Aug 24, 2008 at 05:24 PM.