421 Build. A few changes.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 3
From: Seattle Area WA
Oh no, I do not believe that is the case at all. I believe that with research and a clear plan you can build something once and get what you want. Now, of course, things to manifest themselves in real life as they do on paper, however.....you can get fairly close.
This isn't, IMO a case of too long a build, it's a case of marketing over substance. Seems the builder is now in control, I hope, and some good advice he is giving is being adhered to. Otherwise, with the next best thing being marketed, we'd see yet another change.
This isn't, IMO a case of too long a build, it's a case of marketing over substance. Seems the builder is now in control, I hope, and some good advice he is giving is being adhered to. Otherwise, with the next best thing being marketed, we'd see yet another change.
I have EA and optimizing a setup is good plan but the point I am trying to convey is that building the motor and playing with it is as much fun (except when it doesn't work) as driving it. Perhaps you can build a stout motor and not want to tinker with it, but I like wrenching on a car is too much for me to stop myself, otherwise I probably wouldn't have rebuilt the motor/suspension/etc..
Different philosophies on the joys of playing with a performance vehicle.
Modder vs driver vs both. I consider myself the latter (and a lot of guys on here.)
As for the race, I would love to see that.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh PA
i'd run the comp ported 210's for that 421...thats a BIG inch BIG bore motor and it could use all the head it can get.
195's are great for 383/396's and 210's should be used for anything over 406 in my opinion.
Cam duration seems fine, i also wouldnt hesitate on going abit larger...240-242 on the intake and 246-248 on exhaust. Similar to XFI292 cam if you will.
Either way it should haul ***!
195's are great for 383/396's and 210's should be used for anything over 406 in my opinion.
Cam duration seems fine, i also wouldnt hesitate on going abit larger...240-242 on the intake and 246-248 on exhaust. Similar to XFI292 cam if you will.
Either way it should haul ***!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
Likes: 3
From: Iowa
If you love wrenching on a car you should do what I did... Build a REAL fast engine that costs around $15,000+ and run it hard at the drags and autoX every chance you get. Start pulling 8000 RPM consistently and you will be busy maintaining your driveline forever. No need to keep rebuilding with different combinations all the time.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Ellicott City, MD
You two guys seriously need to get to the same track together when all this hoopala clears and both of you have finished your projects....I think all of us might be willing to donate some cash to pay for the gas and transportation fees....the entertainment value of the ensuing results would be worth every penny.
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,286
Likes: 6
From: Palm Beach
You two guys seriously need to get to the same track together when all this hoopala clears and both of you have finished your projects....I think all of us might be willing to donate some cash to pay for the gas and transportation fees....the entertainment value of the ensuing results would be worth every penny.
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
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Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
In the words of Ron Burgandy, "I agree to disagree."
I have EA and optimizing a setup is good plan but the point I am trying to convey is that building the motor and playing with it is as much fun (except when it doesn't work) as driving it. Perhaps you can build a stout motor and not want to tinker with it, but I like wrenching on a car is too much for me to stop myself, otherwise I probably wouldn't have rebuilt the motor/suspension/etc..
Different philosophies on the joys of playing with a performance vehicle.
Modder vs driver vs both. I consider myself the latter (and a lot of guys on here.)
As for the race, I would love to see that.
I have EA and optimizing a setup is good plan but the point I am trying to convey is that building the motor and playing with it is as much fun (except when it doesn't work) as driving it. Perhaps you can build a stout motor and not want to tinker with it, but I like wrenching on a car is too much for me to stop myself, otherwise I probably wouldn't have rebuilt the motor/suspension/etc..
Different philosophies on the joys of playing with a performance vehicle.
Modder vs driver vs both. I consider myself the latter (and a lot of guys on here.)
As for the race, I would love to see that.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 3
From: Seattle Area WA
If you love wrenching on a car you should do what I did... Build a REAL fast engine that costs around $15,000+ and run it hard at the drags and autoX every chance you get. Start pulling 8000 RPM consistently and you will be busy maintaining your driveline forever. No need to keep rebuilding with different combinations all the time.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
Beach Bum: Here is the email from you to myself.
Hi Rick,
I ran all of the combinations of those two transmission ratio's and 3.07,
3.45 & 3.73 gear ratio's with radial tires.... Quit frankly, all of those
combinations regardless of which were all within a tenth of one another and
can be skewered a little bit because of the radial tires.... In otherwords,
you slowed down with 3.73 gears, but this could be because the program is
accounting for your radial tires. The best was 2.68 transmission combo with
3.45 gears which resulted in this performance:
Set-up for optimum driving, with slipping the clutch and speed shifts of
.010" in duration.
900 ft actual elevation track, 70 degrees, 50% humdity. (right around a 2500
ft DA)
1.948 60 ft
4.96 330 ft
7.44 1/8 et
99.39 1/8 mph
9.59 1000 ft
11.40 1/4 et
126.42 1/4 mph
0-60 mph = 3.75 seconds
0-100 mph = 7.59 seconds
This is assuming: 560 HP @ 6000 rpm - 530 ftlbs @ 4500 rpm
This program is pretty good, and after some practice, on radials, I believe
you could run the above times.
If you just slap on some slicks: You can get
1.58 60 ft
4.57 330 ft
7.05 1/8 et
99.7 1/8 mph
9.16 1000 ft
10.94 1/4 et
127.31 1/4 mph
0-60 mph = 3.19 seconds
And even faster with practice....
Hope this helps.
Hi Rick,
I ran all of the combinations of those two transmission ratio's and 3.07,
3.45 & 3.73 gear ratio's with radial tires.... Quit frankly, all of those
combinations regardless of which were all within a tenth of one another and
can be skewered a little bit because of the radial tires.... In otherwords,
you slowed down with 3.73 gears, but this could be because the program is
accounting for your radial tires. The best was 2.68 transmission combo with
3.45 gears which resulted in this performance:
Set-up for optimum driving, with slipping the clutch and speed shifts of
.010" in duration.
900 ft actual elevation track, 70 degrees, 50% humdity. (right around a 2500
ft DA)
1.948 60 ft
4.96 330 ft
7.44 1/8 et
99.39 1/8 mph
9.59 1000 ft
11.40 1/4 et
126.42 1/4 mph
0-60 mph = 3.75 seconds
0-100 mph = 7.59 seconds
This is assuming: 560 HP @ 6000 rpm - 530 ftlbs @ 4500 rpm
This program is pretty good, and after some practice, on radials, I believe
you could run the above times.
If you just slap on some slicks: You can get
1.58 60 ft
4.57 330 ft
7.05 1/8 et
99.7 1/8 mph
9.16 1000 ft
10.94 1/4 et
127.31 1/4 mph
0-60 mph = 3.19 seconds
And even faster with practice....
Hope this helps.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,105
Likes: 126
From: S.L.C. UT
Hey Guys,
I think this motor will have 10 second potential (with slicks) and great drivability. Keep in mind these heads flow what the old comp AFR220's did not too long ago. But they are doing it with much less port volume, which makes them a much more efficiant head. So this will still have killer part throttle torque, but have potential to make great top end hp. If this had a bigger solid roller, I would lean towards a bigger head. But this will still have great throttle response and torque with the smaller port volume. And the next to no maintance of a hyd roller.
And I told Rick, we will build this as it's comfortable for him. I'm not putting him on a time schedule.
I think this motor will have 10 second potential (with slicks) and great drivability. Keep in mind these heads flow what the old comp AFR220's did not too long ago. But they are doing it with much less port volume, which makes them a much more efficiant head. So this will still have killer part throttle torque, but have potential to make great top end hp. If this had a bigger solid roller, I would lean towards a bigger head. But this will still have great throttle response and torque with the smaller port volume. And the next to no maintance of a hyd roller.
And I told Rick, we will build this as it's comfortable for him. I'm not putting him on a time schedule.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
Not to sound like a jerk, but wouldn't it make more sense to come up with some power and cost goals, and then build an engine to that?
If you sell parts to get different ones every time you realize more power will be had, well that can go on forever. Unless your goal is to have the most powerful C4 ever built, or to spend the most money on unused parts, this seems like a poor strategy?
If you sell parts to get different ones every time you realize more power will be had, well that can go on forever. Unless your goal is to have the most powerful C4 ever built, or to spend the most money on unused parts, this seems like a poor strategy?
There is always someone faster Bob. Just so you know we did come up with some power goals, and cost. I just up'ed them a tad!
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
88blackz-51 this thing is very close to my build ,are you waiting to for the comp cams 8953-16 also ? mine have been on order for 2 months and nothing yet .Tony from afr is a awesome guy he has helped me out big time when he really didn't have to ,what he did for me will never be forgotten 
.it just proves what i have known all along that hands down afr makes the best performance cylinder head in the world and no one else even comes close imo and there customer service is second to none .
.it just proves what i have known all along that hands down afr makes the best performance cylinder head in the world and no one else even comes close imo and there customer service is second to none .Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; Aug 25, 2008 at 04:25 AM.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
I actually would have to disagree. With you on two counts.
1) He did, but since he has had so much down time and a slow build he has had WAY too much time to change his mind.
2) What I actually disagree is with your second comment (quoted above.) In my experience, there are very few who actually build a motor and say, ahh thats it. Most, especially those on here, build/mod a motor and say, damn thats quick...I wonder what _____ would do with it. So in contrast, by selling the heads now, unused he is eliminating 20-30% of that 50% depreciation parts seem to have once they are used (even barely at all.)
In other words, by selling them now while they are worth more he is actually spending less money and time than he would in the long run if he ran the motor and then swapped em out anyway.
Yes, there is a reason why I know this to be true.
Looking forward to seeing your results!
1) He did, but since he has had so much down time and a slow build he has had WAY too much time to change his mind.
2) What I actually disagree is with your second comment (quoted above.) In my experience, there are very few who actually build a motor and say, ahh thats it. Most, especially those on here, build/mod a motor and say, damn thats quick...I wonder what _____ would do with it. So in contrast, by selling the heads now, unused he is eliminating 20-30% of that 50% depreciation parts seem to have once they are used (even barely at all.)
In other words, by selling them now while they are worth more he is actually spending less money and time than he would in the long run if he ran the motor and then swapped em out anyway.
Yes, there is a reason why I know this to be true.
Looking forward to seeing your results!
You took the words right out of my mouth. This is exactly what happened, and what was running threw my mind. With all the parts I have bought and sold over time, I am not in the hole.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,146
Likes: 3
From: The Motor City
Personally I will never understand this thing between you two. You guys should just meet up and give each other a quick kick in the pills and call it a day.....not as entertaining for us (unless of course, this is done repetitively, put on You Tube and posted on the forum), but would certainly cost both of you less $$$.
Rick, good luck on your build
Last edited by mseven; Aug 25, 2008 at 07:54 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
seeing as labor day (or, your 30 day deadline) is only a week away, we only have another week or so to hear about yours...I'm sure you can hardly wait.
Personally I will never understand this thing between you two. You guys should just meet up and give each other a quick kick in the pills and call it a day.....not as entertaining for us (unless of course, this is done repetitively, put on You Tube and posted on the forum), but would certainly cost both of you less $$$.
Rick, good luck on your build
Personally I will never understand this thing between you two. You guys should just meet up and give each other a quick kick in the pills and call it a day.....not as entertaining for us (unless of course, this is done repetitively, put on You Tube and posted on the forum), but would certainly cost both of you less $$$.
Rick, good luck on your build
He told me last week, to "bring the car down" this week. We'll see if the shop is ready today.