421 Build. A few changes.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,413
Likes: 9
From: The Old Dominion
It seems like you chose a 421 because it would meet your power goal while still being mild/docile and passing emissions. It sounds like you are changing the goal because you realized the motor could make more power with different components, except I guess it seems to me you knew that from the beginning.
Anyway, it's your money and your car. I was just wondering what changed, and how do you prevent it from changing again (unless you enjoy buying parts and selling them)?
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
Exactly, there is always someone faster. I'd think that tends to strengthen the "set some goals" thing vs always trying to up the power. No matter what you up it to, someone will have more.
It seems like you chose a 421 because it would meet your power goal while still being mild/docile and passing emissions. It sounds like you are changing the goal because you realized the motor could make more power with different components, except I guess it seems to me you knew that from the beginning.
Anyway, it's your money and your car. I was just wondering what changed, and how do you prevent it from changing again (unless you enjoy buying parts and selling them)?
It seems like you chose a 421 because it would meet your power goal while still being mild/docile and passing emissions. It sounds like you are changing the goal because you realized the motor could make more power with different components, except I guess it seems to me you knew that from the beginning.
Anyway, it's your money and your car. I was just wondering what changed, and how do you prevent it from changing again (unless you enjoy buying parts and selling them)?
Bob, I feel extremely fortunate to be able to say I have a "421" making great power when it's all said and done. Plus it will be unique, be a sleeper, and simply kick ***!
What changed my mind from the 230/230 cam and the 195 street ports to the 236/242 cam and the 195 comp ports? If that is your question then the answer is simple "emmisions" won't play as big of a role as I initially thought. Bob, this motor could make over 600chp easily, but I want driveability. I will be happy with this combo for years to come. I will be spending my money on other things.
And yes buying and selling parts is fun! You should really try it!
Below is an older article with the old 195 AFR's on a 420. Give it a read. Yes Jsup those are 195cc heads!
http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article038/A-P1.htm
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; Aug 25, 2008 at 04:36 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 12,772
Likes: 17
From: Indianapolis IN
Just some food for thought, I have been looking at aftermarket 632 CI big block rotating assemblies and blocks for a long flat TQ curve.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,799
Likes: 2
From: Cape Coral FL
You two guys seriously need to get to the same track together when all this hoopala clears and both of you have finished your projects....I think all of us might be willing to donate some cash to pay for the gas and transportation fees....the entertainment value of the ensuing results would be worth every penny.
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
The race goes down at "high noon".....LOL
The performance related Internet boards....a soap opera for men
-Tony
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh PA
If this had a bigger solid roller, I would lean towards a bigger head. But this will still have great throttle response and torque with the smaller port volume. And the next to no maintance of a hyd roller.
AFR210's will have that quick throttle response too with that cam. IF your intake manifold can flow as much as the heads you'll make great power but thats what i'm not sure of and something you should look into. Port that manifold for sure.
For the price of comp 195's, the base 210's flow the same and are 500 bucks cheaper. For the same price as comp 195's the comp 210's flow 10-12 cfm more and 20+ on exhaust at peak. The 210's flow more at low lift too.
210cc ports are NOT big for a 421. I'd go for the bigger heads man, just my opinion. Either way you'll be happy, i'd just get the most power for the same or cheaper dollar if it was me. 210's i think are the better option and will make more power for sure
Heck if i dont boost my motor i'll stick 210's and a bigger cam on my 383 and not be worried. The 195's are working great!
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
I think you'll have soo much torque you will have problems hooking up. lol
AFR210's will have that quick throttle response too with that cam. IF your intake manifold can flow as much as the heads you'll make great power but thats what i'm not sure of and something you should look into. Port that manifold for sure.
For the price of comp 195's, the base 210's flow the same and are 500 bucks cheaper. For the same price as comp 195's the comp 210's flow 10-12 cfm more and 20+ on exhaust at peak. The 210's flow more at low lift too.
210cc ports are NOT big for a 421. I'd go for the bigger heads man, just my opinion. Either way you'll be happy, i'd just get the most power for the same or cheaper dollar if it was me. 210's i think are the better option and will make more power for sure
Heck if i dont boost my motor i'll stick 210's and a bigger cam on my 383 and not be worried. The 195's are working great!
AFR210's will have that quick throttle response too with that cam. IF your intake manifold can flow as much as the heads you'll make great power but thats what i'm not sure of and something you should look into. Port that manifold for sure.
For the price of comp 195's, the base 210's flow the same and are 500 bucks cheaper. For the same price as comp 195's the comp 210's flow 10-12 cfm more and 20+ on exhaust at peak. The 210's flow more at low lift too.
210cc ports are NOT big for a 421. I'd go for the bigger heads man, just my opinion. Either way you'll be happy, i'd just get the most power for the same or cheaper dollar if it was me. 210's i think are the better option and will make more power for sure
Heck if i dont boost my motor i'll stick 210's and a bigger cam on my 383 and not be worried. The 195's are working great!
Also, this car will see 99% of street. I will go to the track to check out the trap speed, but I really couldnt care less if it ran a 11.5 or a 12.3 as long as it traps what I think it should.
There thinking is to go with a slightly bigger cam, and a head that flows more, and move the peak hp up a few rpm's. I do understand what you are saying and thanks for the comments.
Via the AFR website. The 210cc street heads do not outflow the 195cc comp ports. The intake cfm #'s are close from .200-.600, but the 195 head outflows the bigger 210cc head on the exhaust side across the board. But yes you are right the 210cc comp ports outflow the 195cc comp ports, but they should!
Tony explained it to me why the 195cc comp ports are the best for my application. Port Velocity was a big factor, and I dont want to spin this thing past 6400. Of course the sky is the limit, but at the end of the day, I still want a build that is streetable, and gets reasonable gas mileage hence the 195's.
Take it easy!
I sent you a pm.
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; Aug 25, 2008 at 06:50 PM.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 545
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From: st albert alberta
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2113938
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
Likes: 0
From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Below is an older article with the old 195 AFR's on a 420. Give it a read. Yes Jsup those are 195cc heads!
http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article038/A-P1.htm
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh PA
Via the AFR website. The 210cc street heads do not outflow the 195cc comp ports. The intake cfm #'s are close from .200-.600, but the 195 head outflows the bigger 210cc head on the exhaust side across the board.
But like i said, my opinion and its not changing your mindset. you'll be happy with the comp port 195's as they are some kicking heads! I know a guy throwing those on a 355 looking for 400whp thru a modded TPI setup...yes a TPI setup! unbelievable. Thats why I suggest the larger heads as the 195's are proven streetable on small 355 motors let alone a big bore 421.
I'll be watching this build tho. Get it done
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
yeah i didnt say they flow more, i said they flow the same which they dont, they are off a few cfm here and there but its close. Is the few cfm worth the extra 500 bucks? i wouldnt justify it but you got a point with the velocity thing. I just think you'll have plenty of velocity with 210's as well since 210's arent big for a 421.
But like i said, my opinion and its not changing your mindset. you'll be happy with the comp port 195's as they are some kicking heads! I know a guy throwing those on a 355 looking for 400whp thru a modded TPI setup...yes a TPI setup! unbelievable. Thats why I suggest the larger heads as the 195's are proven streetable on small 355 motors let alone a big bore 421.
I'll be watching this build tho. Get it done
But like i said, my opinion and its not changing your mindset. you'll be happy with the comp port 195's as they are some kicking heads! I know a guy throwing those on a 355 looking for 400whp thru a modded TPI setup...yes a TPI setup! unbelievable. Thats why I suggest the larger heads as the 195's are proven streetable on small 355 motors let alone a big bore 421.
I'll be watching this build tho. Get it done
I would love to see what power that guy makes with the comp port's on a TPI. Do you mean a stock TPI? It will be a tq monster foresure, but 400rwhp? That's impressive. Is he a member of thirdgen.org?
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
Hey Guys,
I think this motor will have 10 second potential (with slicks) and great drivability. Keep in mind these heads flow what the old comp AFR220's did not too long ago. But they are doing it with much less port volume, which makes them a much more efficiant head. So this will still have killer part throttle torque, but have potential to make great top end hp. If this had a bigger solid roller, I would lean towards a bigger head. But this will still have great throttle response and torque with the smaller port volume. And the next to no maintance of a hyd roller.
And I told Rick, we will build this as it's comfortable for him. I'm not putting him on a time schedule.
I think this motor will have 10 second potential (with slicks) and great drivability. Keep in mind these heads flow what the old comp AFR220's did not too long ago. But they are doing it with much less port volume, which makes them a much more efficiant head. So this will still have killer part throttle torque, but have potential to make great top end hp. If this had a bigger solid roller, I would lean towards a bigger head. But this will still have great throttle response and torque with the smaller port volume. And the next to no maintance of a hyd roller.
And I told Rick, we will build this as it's comfortable for him. I'm not putting him on a time schedule.
Jim knows best!
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
seeing as labor day (or, your 30 day deadline) is only a week away, we only have another week or so to hear about yours...I'm sure you can hardly wait.
Personally I will never understand this thing between you two. You guys should just meet up and give each other a quick kick in the pills and call it a day.....not as entertaining for us (unless of course, this is done repetitively, put on You Tube and posted on the forum), but would certainly cost both of you less $$$.
Rick, good luck on your build
Personally I will never understand this thing between you two. You guys should just meet up and give each other a quick kick in the pills and call it a day.....not as entertaining for us (unless of course, this is done repetitively, put on You Tube and posted on the forum), but would certainly cost both of you less $$$.
Rick, good luck on your build
The "big cube" craze hits everyone.
-- Joe
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,525
Likes: 2
From: Houston TX
I bet if 88Black stepped up the cubes to a 434 (hell, even a 428cid), there would be another build that would change as well.
These guys have to know that there will always be someone bigger and faster, just build to what is going to make you happy (while of course minding the emissions laws
).
I have always liked the road less travelled:
- which is why I shoved a 4" stroke (and then later a 4.125" stroke) into the factory L98 and LT1 blocks. Everyone thinks that street cars would be limited to 383 cid in factory blocks, which means you can get away with larger cubes, and no one is the wiser.
- Everyone thinks that factory valve covers have stamped steel rockers, when you can use 0.45" spacers sold on the internet and run Jesel (or T&D) shafts.
- people think SRs are for race cars, which means I can run huge lift and duration and have it quiet enough to where they think you are HR.
- people think 10psi boost is the limit on street cars. If you build with good, high quality components, that "green" MAP would make sense to those in the know.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, but in the end the cat looks the same. Enjoy the build, whatever size it ends up at.
Aaron
These guys have to know that there will always be someone bigger and faster, just build to what is going to make you happy (while of course minding the emissions laws
).I have always liked the road less travelled:
- which is why I shoved a 4" stroke (and then later a 4.125" stroke) into the factory L98 and LT1 blocks. Everyone thinks that street cars would be limited to 383 cid in factory blocks, which means you can get away with larger cubes, and no one is the wiser.
- Everyone thinks that factory valve covers have stamped steel rockers, when you can use 0.45" spacers sold on the internet and run Jesel (or T&D) shafts.
- people think SRs are for race cars, which means I can run huge lift and duration and have it quiet enough to where they think you are HR.
- people think 10psi boost is the limit on street cars. If you build with good, high quality components, that "green" MAP would make sense to those in the know.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, but in the end the cat looks the same. Enjoy the build, whatever size it ends up at.
Aaron
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh PA
I would love to see what power that guy makes with the comp port's on a TPI. Do you mean a stock TPI? It will be a tq monster foresure, but 400rwhp? That's impressive. Is he a member of thirdgen.org?
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
I bet if 88Black stepped up the cubes to a 434 (hell, even a 428cid), there would be another build that would change as well.
These guys have to know that there will always be someone bigger and faster, just build to what is going to make you happy (while of course minding the emissions laws).
I have always liked the road less travelled:
- which is why I shoved a 4" stroke (and then later a 4.125" stroke) into the factory L98 and LT1 blocks. Everyone thinks that street cars would be limited to 383 cid in factory blocks, which means you can get away with larger cubes, and no one is the wiser.
- Everyone thinks that factory valve covers have stamped steel rockers, when you can use 0.45" spacers sold on the internet and run Jesel (or T&D) shafts.
- people think SRs are for race cars, which means I can run huge lift and duration and have it quiet enough to where they think you are HR.
- people think 10psi boost is the limit on street cars. If you build with good, high quality components, that "green" MAP would make sense to those in the know.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, but in the end the cat looks the same. Enjoy the build, whatever size it ends up at.
Aaron
These guys have to know that there will always be someone bigger and faster, just build to what is going to make you happy (while of course minding the emissions laws
).I have always liked the road less travelled:
- which is why I shoved a 4" stroke (and then later a 4.125" stroke) into the factory L98 and LT1 blocks. Everyone thinks that street cars would be limited to 383 cid in factory blocks, which means you can get away with larger cubes, and no one is the wiser.
- Everyone thinks that factory valve covers have stamped steel rockers, when you can use 0.45" spacers sold on the internet and run Jesel (or T&D) shafts.
- people think SRs are for race cars, which means I can run huge lift and duration and have it quiet enough to where they think you are HR.
- people think 10psi boost is the limit on street cars. If you build with good, high quality components, that "green" MAP would make sense to those in the know.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, but in the end the cat looks the same. Enjoy the build, whatever size it ends up at.
Aaron
I hear what your saying. I am sticking with the 421 cubes! I know I wont have the fastest car around, I am not concerned with that. Actually a have a few friends that would roast the 421 that Jim is building as they have a C5 TT, and a Viper TT makes over 800rwhp on full boost.
We just decided to put a little more cam in it, and bump up the heads a tad. That's all. Nothing major!
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; Aug 26, 2008 at 05:32 PM.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
hi,I'm building a 427 using the cnc bowtie block 12480175 ,4 inch stroke and 4.125 bore .the lifters you need for these blocks because the lifter bores are taller you need to run the 300 thousands taller comp cams 8953-16 lifters,hyd rollers or you can clearance the top of the lifter bores and use regular comp lifter but i would hate to grind on this block .if you running a small base circle cam these lifters are a must but I'm using the new eagle max clearance h-beam rods that are cnc clearances for camshaft clearance and i can run a regular base circle cam with the 4 inch stroke and it won't interfere.my block is going to get cnc clearanced on some fancy new machine at the place that does my machining .your build up will be awesome for sure it will be a handful ,but these days to keep up to these factory z06 making 505hp and shelby stangs 450hp you got to build a heavy duty power plant like we are building .are you going with a fast xfi or accel dfi also ? i think that's the only way you will get the full potential out of your engine and with the horse power connection splice in harness its a snap to put in and your stock ecm stays hooked up also .here is my build and i have alot of stuff to do still but it will be ready by next spring for surehttp://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2113938
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2113938Looks like one hell of a build. I am going with the F.A.S.T. Classic system! There was no way, I was shipping chips back and forth for months and months.
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; Aug 26, 2008 at 05:40 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,624
Likes: 431
From: Dale City VA
The lifters you need for these blocks because the lifter bores are taller you need to run the 300 thousands taller comp cams 8953-16 lifters,hyd rollers or you can clearance the top of the lifter bores and use regular comp lifter but i would hate to grind on this block .
Will
