I have consistently stated without equivocation. Read this over a couple times.

AFR is one of the finest products on the market and should be considered as an option for anyone whose budget and application warrants these parts. Tony is a stand up guy with stellar customer service and is very knowledgable. How's that? I mean it sincerely.
I have no personal war with anyone or any product. I am simply dispelling the myths that are accepted as facts. That's all. Why? Because of my personal experience here. Had I listened to these catalog experts I would have spent $1000s more than I needed listening to people who are talking out of their ***. I am out to save someone else from the same fate.

And, yes, I have the same problem with the blind alligence to Zaino or any other product. It's silly.
Right, so you point it out, now we know, and we're done. Should you be attacked for it? No. Congratulations, you pointed it out. I'm doing the same thing here. Is that being a TPIS hater? I'd say not.


Well, Deakins builds motors for a living...Does that count?

I am sure Tony is financially set. Good for him. Marketing will do that. Ask Harley Davidson.

 

Fine, fund it.

But Dart gets to pick the cam.

And you see, there you go...Making it a this vs. that argument. That's not what I'm saying. I do not care which product anyone chooses.

I do care that the information provided to make those choices is accurate. The fact that one has higher flow numbers may be meaningless in one build, and important in another, as much as a product that has wet benched proven fuel delivery may be better in another. Should we not take both positions, measure them against the science, and let people decide? What's wrong with that?

As I stated, the QUALITY of the flow is as important as the QUANTITY of the flow, and I spelled it out in great detail. This isn't about brand, it's about mis information.

 

Whats wrong with that is you can not do that for every single build that will ever occur. At some point you are you going to choose to believe someone's marketing be it Dart, Brodix, or AFR.

Do you personally truly have the knowledge to analyze a port and cc shape to know if it is best for your given application? I don't, thats where relying on independant dyno tests comes into play.

The lay person like myself will say...

Proven performer? Check.
Great customer service? Check.
Quality product? Check.
Fits budget? Check.

 

Can I ask why you wouldn't try to learn how to make the decision for yourself (without help from the manufacturer)? I think that's the real issue that is being debated here; the idea that there are a lot of people that have more than enough intelligence that could learn, and come out with a better end game. You don't need a master’s degree in engineering to know what to look for; just the interest and willingness to listen and think about what people tell you.

 

Here's the bottom line....

You're willing to drop $2K on heads.....what are you going to base your decisions on?

1. Do you want it to be some know nothing catalog reader on the internet who wouldn't know his *** from a hole in the ground? In this example spouting off things like exhaust flow matters and dry flow bench vs port size is the only determining factor to your choice, when in fact that is erroneous? Lies, misinformation, based on pure ignorance?

2. Or perhaps a manufacturer who has a vested interest in your choice?

3. OR someone with the background and expertise to give you enough information to make an intelligent decision, regardless of what that decision is....who has no dog in the fight?

You tell me....which would you choose? To date, the third option has been noticeably absent here, I am simply trying to inject some objectivity into these conversations. And in lieu of a competent argument from the other side, the facts are dismissed as hatred toward a particular brand or person, which clearly is not the case. That's when the name calling starts, etc...

It's your money, you can spend it on any information you see fit. For those who care about how their money is spent, I simply offer the facts based on the expertise I laid out. The decision is still yours. I came pretty close to being hosed by accepting such lure as fact, and I don't want to see others sucked down the same rabbit hole. I was smart enough to see it when I was in it, many are not.

 

Some good natured ribbing-sarcasm-gearhead smack talking will always go on but my God this off track every thread same-old-crusade thing gets old.
Jsup I cant speak for everyone but I think what these guys are getting at is what youre posting is read, repeated...Not "done". Personally Ill listen to someone "doing" with one eye open before I take the word of he said she said that is not in the industry.
Theres no magical answer in the solar system to have "proof" as far as consumers, about all you can do is "measure" and share the info. If pieces were flowed using sand or pixie dust then fine;still a measure regardless
For the consumers like us thats what we have to go by...
Let up a bit will ya? Its confusing the heck out of a lot of new guys who get to the point to where they leave the board or abhort thier build all together. Spoke to one last night as a matter of fact.
I could care less if my threads get sidetracked but every guy who goes to post about motor anything now may think twice, thats not good.

Having fun with a thread and taking a good natureds jab is one thing but come on man...

 

Look, I see mis information, I correct it to the best of my knowledge, and people take offense. I can't control that you need to talk to them.
I don't disagree, however it's such a one sided argument here sometimes, there needs to be some balance. Believe me there are some bright and intelligent people on this board, non of which will comment because they are not going to subject themselves to the onslaught of abuse from the idiots. See, I don't really care, I can take the abuse... but there's far more people who, and I quote an IM I got, "see XXXX's post strictly as entertainment".
Listen man, I take the slings and arrows for the new guys. I want to spur rational thinking and full disclosure. You tell me what value a forum has when the answer is the same and the backup and supporting information is defective. It is really for the new guys, the guys in the midst of their builds for which I subject myself to this insanity. Like I said, had I listened to every single piece of bad information I was given, I'd spent more money and as a result have less of an engine for it.

It's all about allocating resources. Guys have $X for their build and if part A can do the job and 20% less than part B, they can improve on part C and have better results.

The other problem I see is that guys go through a catalog and pick the most expensive, coolest, most shiny parts, need them or not. Hell, PeteK is a budget racer, the guy would go out with a $3K built motor with almost junkyard parts and smoke guys spending triple and quadruple on their motors. I respect that immensely. And I betcha the resident geniuses would tell him he's doing everything wrong. Thumbs up PETE!!! Speed can be achieved on a budget, and many builds don't get done, or get prolonged because of the perceived necessary, expensive parts.

The point is that I feel that many builds don't get done not because I have the nerve to confuse the issue, which I submit I am not, but becuase these "new guys" are lead to believe the bull**** they are being fed a steady diet of.

How many times have we heard that exhaust flow port is such a big deal, well, it's not. Period. Why make these guys separate themselves from extra money for something so irrelevant? To be part of the crowd? How stupid.

My intentions are altruistic and it is those people you cite to have concern that I hope I am benefiting. They have nothing to lose by hearing other points of view. Think about that right there for a minute. Who in the world can lose from hearing another point of view. I do not see why that is so damn controversial. I am not the one who is trying to crush the opposition. There is a vocal minority here that does not want to hear anything that does not fit their version of reality. It's sad isn't it?

Tell it to the people who can't stand to hear anything that deviates from doctrine. I came into this thread with the spirit of humor which it was originated. It was NOT me who went off the deep end, however, letting defective information stand, well, can't do that. Again, it is THEY who have the problem, not me. Tell them to STFU, not me.

 

Me personally? Having been on this board for nearly 10 years I would take the advice of guys like Beach Bum and Corky who have tracked their cars and have been members here as long as I have. As well I have read reviews and seen dyno numbers that says which products work.

I believe, in one of the million head threads we've had, Beach Bum said Corky gained a few tenths with his switch to AFR's. Good enough for me...sounds like they work. No "marketing" there...real world opinion, backed up by experience & hard data. If a serious racer can use the product and endorse it, regardless of the brand what is the problem?

BTW what did your new motor dyno?

 

If I remember correctly, corky's times varied with different heads, some better than AFR, some worse. But that works for their combination and fit their budget. That's not everyone. And if it turns out that everyone pics up time with any particular head, that's great. Maybe the head he had on BEFORE he mad the switch was the wrong Dart head....switching to a new DART head may have had the same result. We don't know. Taking one fact out of context is as useless as a dry flow bench. But not all situations are the same. I wish there were a magic bullet, there isn't.

I did not put my car on the dyno yet. I am working with Greg with the tune. We do it for a couple hours on Saturdays. I am learning about tuning and learning what a bitch it is. We have an Ostritch, a ECU simulator, Electronic FP Guage, Wide Band 02, and we are tweaking tweaking tweaking.

We are progamming to closed loop, which I am finding is very difficult. The stock ECU although more refined and elegant, than that say of a FAST system, is really a bitch.

We've had some glitches like the Torque converter would not lock up no matter what we did, must have been a glitch in the code, so we started over. The stupid thing was going into Block Learn 4, the fix was to move the charcoal dump to 0, don't ask me why. All this little **** we had to figure out. The cam is a bitch.

I have the entire winter to work on it, between kids soccer games, football games, cheerleading, birthday parties, etc....etc....etc..

So time has been the issue really, we're getting there. A stupid plug chage takes me two hours, we're going to a slightly warmer plug with protruding electrodes. Musi put in recessed electrode plugs, Greg wants protruding electrodes. I called Dart and verified that was OK, so I have to change the plugs over.

Details, details, details.

THEN of all fkn things, the T-stat froze up. A brand new fkn stat. I had to change that. Luckily it was an easy and cheap job. I had an oil leak, Musi fixed it, one day.

So I'm getting there, looking to make it drivable by spring.

 

When I was tuning my car I found that it was just a better option to take the car to a well known tuner, have him to a nice dyno-tune for a very good baseline, then if I needed to I could tweak it from there. I did need to make some changes as my car was originally tuned in the very hot AZ summer, so when winter rolled around I had some slight off-idle issues that I had to clean up. But tuning a car from scratch, when you don't have a lot of experience is hard, and you can hurt things if you're not careful.

 

Greg is Greg Carroll from Blowerworks, he knows these cars well and I have checked around, he is a phenomenal tuner from what I am told. Remember Carroll Superchargers? That's him.

Knowledge is not his problem. Being completely **** may be. But that's a very good thing for me.

 

How right you are. Years ago, I had just installed a new 383 motor with a Superram manifold in my "84 vette, originally a crossfire which I switched to carburation for a few years. It was time to change back to fuel injection and I chose a the Accel dfi gen 6 system (state of the art at the time). The ecu was programmed by a supposed dfi guru for my motor with my parameters. When I started the car for the first time, it was running dead rich, black smoke and all. When I finally figured out how to make changes with the laptop, the cylinder walls were washed down and glazed. Had to pull the motor out later because the rings never seated. Good learning experience, but I had to rely on someone's "expertise" with this product; just picked the wrong person.

 

Well that's a different story, I didn't realize who it was.

 

I think Ron (Cuisinart) has a point. These discussions provide thought and direction for investigation. But the ideas are convoluted and intimitating for (us) beginners. From each perspective offered here, I see good and bad. I see fact and fiction. I see contradiction.

For example, Deakins implies scavenging is (more) a result of the exhaust system design -- including things like primary length. While I agree exhaust system design is critical to performance, Vizzard points out that primary header tube length is not particularly important. They don't even have to be the same length. It's the diameter that makes the biggest difference. Additionally, CorvetteFever has an article on cam selection that states modern improvements in cylinder head exhaust port design will negate the need for cam splits as a compensation for exhaust evacuation. They clearly site exhaust port flow improvement as being an important advancement.

But, Tony also uses the phrase "crutch the crap" to describe the extreme measures that cams must be adjusted to compensate for lower exhaust flows (than apparently anything less than AFRs). This seems over-stated because, compared to other aftermarket heads, AFR heads flow about 10 % more. Unless the comparison is to crappy factory heads, I would say adjustments are warranted vs "crutch-the-crap". That kind of phrasing in a tech forum does sound more like marketing that fact. But I realize cam splits are an issue for debate. I also believe a better flowing exhaust port would enable shorter exhaust durations and all the other things Tony sited as a benefit. I believe his generalities are absolutely true.

But, then JSUP says exhaust flow number are virtually meaningless. And, he's the guy that's supposed to be fighting for clarity and understand for (us) beginners. Based on my last statement in the para above, you can see I'd disagree with this generalization and don't feel John's goal is successful.

When I talked to TPiS (last week), they said the lower exhaust flow #s of their L98 ported heads would produce MORE torque than higher flowing AFR exhaust ports! I believe their contention is less flow would hold pressure a tad longer as the exh valve starts to open at the end of the combustion stroke. By contrast, an engine simulator shows that improved exhaust port flow adds torque/power. So, I would ask if JSUP's item #1, #2, or even #3 are completely reliable? TPiS falls under his item #3 -- which is what I believe he is recommending. Quite frankly, it seems safer to believe no one! Everyone, and I mean everyone is trying to "sell" something here.

My point isn't to single out anyone. Rather it's to point out that no one seems to be completely right or wrong. Really, everyone does have an interesting (and valid) perspective. But, Cuisinart is correct, this discussion also adds significant confusion/conflict. I think it adds more confusion that it resolves. And, I could see it being "scary"!

I've been at this only a year and I know you guys scare me!

 

I think the larger issue is that we tend to look for something empirical that we can latch onto to compare and make a reasonably informed decision. Then marketing gets focused on the flow numbers. Then the question are flow numbers really a good benchmark for comparison? The engineering answer is "kinda" and the sales answer is "heck ya." So the debate is about is the area around what the heck does "kinda" mean. Same with are flow numbers even empirical enough for a basis of comparison? Again the answer is "kinda"

 

Greg, thanks for posting, I have always found your thoughts to be carefully considered. Your point in the paragraph above basically NAILS what I am trying to accomplish. There is WAAAYYY too much noise and WAAAYYYY too much crap being circulated as fact which has little basis in it. If my information simply helps you, I have accomplished something. I don't care what choices you make, if the information makes you stop, think, and consider and help you make the right choice, I was successful.

Again, you appear to have the ability to read each argument and decide yourself. That's all I ask. Becusae Deakins says something that is hard to grasp, just re read it a couple times till it makes sense.
Tony has a product to sell. Does not make him wrong, just saying he's not going to put up arguments that favor another product. Nor should he. It's his responsibility not to. The guy from Dart would tell you something different, as would the guy from Brodix, as would the guy from Edlebrock, as would Sonny, according to the specs here. I will simply cite that Tony has never told someone "Ya know, a Brodix head may be the best fit for you".... Nor should he. But people here seem to miss that point.


That's right, when you see a motor like the one started this thread and the exhaust flow numbers on it, I submit that it a small block Chevy does not need flow numbers higher than the Sonny Lenord engine. This is not science, it is simply common sense. So the issue is when searching for evidence, that fact right there smacks me right in the face. The motor is so much more significantly large than a 350,400 that I can not imagine a condition where those motors would require more exhaust flow than this monster.
Exactly, everyone is trying to sell something. I'm not, Deakins is not. SO personally, I discount those opinions from any source with a vested interest in the outcome. Seems many have a problem with that. Some people call it "nice" that a manufacture would participate in discussion, I call it aggressive selling. It's a matter of perspective.

Hey, I have been singled out enough, you get used to it.

Greg, you impress me in the fact that you are looking at all the information, considering all of it, and making decisions based on what YOU believe.

Now, the last piece of the puzzle I'd like to address is the "I know a guy who went really fast when he switched heads, he picked up .5 seconds".

I problaby don't need to tell you what a bullcrap statement that is, but allow me to explain.

1. How old were the heads he switched from?
2. What generation of technology were they from
3. Were they the RIGHT head to start with, hell, swithcing heads from Dart old technology to Dart new technology, from the wrong head to the right head could have made the difference
4. You do realize that when you put on new heads you have new head gaskets, you reset the valves, etc..... probably do a tune up at the same time So there's more to the change than simply heads.

Anecdotal evidence is just that.

 

Why not say your guy from Dart hasn't ever told anyone AFR's would be best either?



That is not the point of this thread and never was intended to be. That was a joke that you have taken seriously and run with. Completely missed the point.



Is that a shot at me?


Do you realize that you bring Dart up in every single head thread you've been in. IMO You are Dart's mouthpiece on the forum. Dare I say youre a fan of Dart? There is nothing wrong with that, but its kind of hypocritical that you blast all of the AFR fans for their blind fan-dom, yet you do the exact same thing.

Whats the difference? Tony/AFR pay to be here and put up with your non-stop assults on why they aren't the best. Dart does not support this forum. Tony is paying for you to be able tell everyone to shy away from AFR on a daily basis b/c another head can perform as well for less money. That in my humble opinion is

 

[QUOTE=cuisinartvette;1567445538]I dont think a TPI will fit.


Maybe with an airfoil, it maybe enough!

 

What I always found interesting was that most of the common anti-AFR statements is that (and I'm para-phrasing here) "everything that comes out of Tony's mouth is AFR marketing". To me that is total garbage...last I checked Tony works for the product development and product engineering over at AFR...not marketing. So is it possible that a lot of the information he is saying is based on the knowledge that he has actually DESIGNING heads? Oh heavens no...it all just has to be marketing, however I bet if he worked for Dart some people would then take his word as Gospel...

 

Bingo!