Flow numbers, beat these.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
That is not the point of this thread and never was intended to be. That was a joke that you have taken seriously and run with. Completely missed the point.
Is that a shot at me?
Do you realize that you bring Dart up in every single head thread you've been in. IMO You are Dart's mouthpiece on the forum. Dare I say youre a fan of Dart? There is nothing wrong with that, but its kind of hypocritical that you blast all of the AFR fans for their blind fan-dom, yet you do the exact same thing.
Whats the difference? Tony/AFR pay to be here and put up with your non-stop assults on why they aren't the best. Dart does not support this forum. Tony is paying for you to be able tell everyone to shy away from AFR on a daily basis b/c another head can perform as well for less money. That in my humble opinion is 
I agree with the rest of the sentiment, and yes on that point alone I would lean AFR.
You are changing the basis of my point. My point is not about AFR or TONY or Dart or Brodix or Edlebrock (which also is a forum sponsor btw and no one has a problem trashing them).
My crusade is about mis information, and those who perpetrate it, act as if they are some kind of experts, when in fact their basis for their conclusion defies science, physics, the laugh test, and common sense. Period. End of story.
Last edited by jsup; Oct 16, 2008 at 11:12 AM.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
What I always found interesting was that most of the common anti-AFR statements is that (and I'm para-phrasing here) "everything that comes out of Tony's mouth is AFR marketing". To me that is total garbage...last I checked Tony works for the product development and product engineering over at AFR...not marketing. So is it possible that a lot of the information he is saying is based on the knowledge that he has actually DESIGNING heads? Oh heavens no...it all just has to be marketing, however I bet if he worked for Dart some people would then take his word as Gospel...
Last edited by jsup; Oct 16, 2008 at 11:27 AM.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Let me also add this.
I am in the technology business. We sell stuff for a living. I have worked for manufacturers for years.
When I go in front of a customer, and it has happened to me, I tell them our products do A, B, C, D
They retort with something along the lines...But Cisco does X,Y,Z
Then I have to respond with...yes but.....and explain it
Point is I get put against the wall on the daily basis with people trying to shoot holes in my product/service/etc.... I have to be well armed and prepared to answer the questions truthfully, honestly, and technically to the customers satisfaction.
I believe that open discussion like these are a lot like what I do daily. People shoot, you duck, you respond, and they accept the answer or not. It's dialogue. At the end of the day if you weather the slings and arrows acceptably, you win. That transcends technology, it is the nature of every business. And techno geeks are extrememly **** in their research, and ideas. They do their research and it is open season on sales guys. We need not only to have the answer, the company line, but the technically correct answer.
We need to participate in the discussion to what I call three levels deep. Ask a question....why? Ask another...why? Ask another...why? Then you have earned respect. DEAKINS to his credit has done that to MY satisfaction. No one else has. So as far as I am concerned, he stands on this forum as the standard bearer for me right now. He is educated, yes, he has designed heads, and he builds motors for a living that wins races. Plus he has no agenda other then education.
SO to that end, I ask no less of anyone else I am handing money to than I ask of myself on the daily basis. And shallow thinking and mis information don't fly in my business, and they don't fly in this one either.
I am in the technology business. We sell stuff for a living. I have worked for manufacturers for years.
When I go in front of a customer, and it has happened to me, I tell them our products do A, B, C, D
They retort with something along the lines...But Cisco does X,Y,Z
Then I have to respond with...yes but.....and explain it
Point is I get put against the wall on the daily basis with people trying to shoot holes in my product/service/etc.... I have to be well armed and prepared to answer the questions truthfully, honestly, and technically to the customers satisfaction.
I believe that open discussion like these are a lot like what I do daily. People shoot, you duck, you respond, and they accept the answer or not. It's dialogue. At the end of the day if you weather the slings and arrows acceptably, you win. That transcends technology, it is the nature of every business. And techno geeks are extrememly **** in their research, and ideas. They do their research and it is open season on sales guys. We need not only to have the answer, the company line, but the technically correct answer.
We need to participate in the discussion to what I call three levels deep. Ask a question....why? Ask another...why? Ask another...why? Then you have earned respect. DEAKINS to his credit has done that to MY satisfaction. No one else has. So as far as I am concerned, he stands on this forum as the standard bearer for me right now. He is educated, yes, he has designed heads, and he builds motors for a living that wins races. Plus he has no agenda other then education.
SO to that end, I ask no less of anyone else I am handing money to than I ask of myself on the daily basis. And shallow thinking and mis information don't fly in my business, and they don't fly in this one either.
Last edited by jsup; Oct 16, 2008 at 11:28 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Phoenix AZ
When tony is helping you spec a head, is he going to reccomend a head that isn't AFR? OR come up with points that don't favor AFR? No, it would be irresponsible for him to do such. There is nothing wrong with that, I don't understand the compelling reasons people feel the need to ignore that.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
That does NOT mean I am not honest or technically accurate. It's innate. I do it, every sales guy I know does it, every owner of a company I know does it. It's innate. The argument is framed in a way that supports the environment you are in.
Tomorrow if I work for another company I will be framing the argument to benefit that, again, NOT INTENTIONALLY!!! It just happens.
We can't help ourselves. It's about the framing of the argument to fit a pre disposed position.
Now, if you argue that marketing follows tech, perhaps, but the two are inseparable.
Like I said, I do it, and I fault no one else for doing it. It's human nature. What irritates me is people who say "call XXX company they will help you pick a head"...
The real statement is "call XXX company, they will help you pick any head they make"....and the response is "I worked with XXX to pick a head and GOLLLLLY we picked our XXX model because it was the best fit"....well, no. It was the best fit THAT WE MAKE. Not the best solution for the end user, all the time....right?
See the difference? The argument here is consistently framed to illicit a pre determined outcome. Period. It's the framing of the argument is the issue. Especially when that framework is shotty at best, by people who have no business making it in the first place.
Last edited by jsup; Oct 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM.
Thread Starter
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
What irritates me is people who say "call XXX company they will help you pick a head"...
Look, you want to pick "experts" brains, go put your arguements up at speedtalk.com and see what happens, thats where most of them post it wont be here. Make sure and post a link, Ill pick up extra butter for the
We are all lucky we have aftermarket stuff to choose from. I can remember when options were limited to a few diffferent iron GM heads.
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St. Jude Donor '10
It seems that your whole arguement is that one setup doesn't fit all. That the cam needs to be tailored to the heads. So wouldn't it make sense that if I wanted to run Brodix heads Id call them up tell them what I wanted and let them pick the head/cam combo for me?
If you call Lloyd Elliot he will give you a head/cam combo. Advanced Induction does the same thing.
There is a serious disconnect here.
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
It seems that your whole argument is that one setup doesn't fit all. That the cam needs to be tailored to the heads. So wouldn't it make sense that if I wanted to run Brodix heads Id call them up tell them what I wanted and let them pick the head/cam combo for me?
If you call Lloyd Elliot he will give you a head/cam combo. Advanced Induction does the same thing.
There is a serious disconnect here.
There is a serious disconnect here.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Metairie Louisiana
They retort with something along the lines...But Cisco does X,Y,Z
Then I have to respond with...yes but.....and explain it
Point is I get put against the wall on the daily basis with people trying to shoot holes in my product/service/etc.... I have to be well armed and prepared to answer the questions truthfully, honestly, and technically to the customers satisfaction.
Then I have to respond with...yes but.....and explain it
Point is I get put against the wall on the daily basis with people trying to shoot holes in my product/service/etc.... I have to be well armed and prepared to answer the questions truthfully, honestly, and technically to the customers satisfaction.
Former CCNA instructor.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 8,683
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From: Phoenix AZ
All in context. Hell, I can't help doing it myself. Someone asks which XXX I should use, I give them my honest answer. However, it always seems to be the product I happened to be involed with at the time
That does NOT mean I am not honest or technically accurate. It's innate. I do it, every sales guy I know does it, every owner of a company I know does it. It's innate. The argument is framed in a way that supports the environment you are in.
Tomorrow if I work for another company I will be framing the argument to benefit that, again, NOT INTENTIONALLY!!! It just happens.
We can't help ourselves. It's about the framing of the argument to fit a pre disposed position.
Now, if you argue that marketing follows tech, perhaps, but the two are inseparable.
Like I said, I do it, and I fault no one else for doing it. It's human nature. What irritates me is people who say "call XXX company they will help you pick a head"...
The real statement is "call XXX company, they will help you pick any head they make"....and the response is "I worked with XXX to pick a head and GOLLLLLY we picked our XXX model because it was the best fit"....well, no. It was the best fit THAT WE MAKE.
See the difference? The argument here is consistently framed to illicit a pre determined outcome. Period. It's the framing of the argument is the issue. Especially when that framework is shotty at best, by people who have no business making it in the first place.
That does NOT mean I am not honest or technically accurate. It's innate. I do it, every sales guy I know does it, every owner of a company I know does it. It's innate. The argument is framed in a way that supports the environment you are in.
Tomorrow if I work for another company I will be framing the argument to benefit that, again, NOT INTENTIONALLY!!! It just happens.
We can't help ourselves. It's about the framing of the argument to fit a pre disposed position.
Now, if you argue that marketing follows tech, perhaps, but the two are inseparable.
Like I said, I do it, and I fault no one else for doing it. It's human nature. What irritates me is people who say "call XXX company they will help you pick a head"...
The real statement is "call XXX company, they will help you pick any head they make"....and the response is "I worked with XXX to pick a head and GOLLLLLY we picked our XXX model because it was the best fit"....well, no. It was the best fit THAT WE MAKE.
See the difference? The argument here is consistently framed to illicit a pre determined outcome. Period. It's the framing of the argument is the issue. Especially when that framework is shotty at best, by people who have no business making it in the first place.
Interesting thoughts but far from reality when we are discussing street/strip pump gas engines that run full exhausts (some with catalytic converters) and camshafts that are night and day different in their design (Sonny Leonard mountain motors have zero in common with anything we are discussing that could be of any real benefit to those reading this). This is the kind of post that starts the spread of bad information on these message boards....
In the real world your 200 CFM exhaust port will work "OK" on a 270 CFM intake port but will not cut the mustard on a higher flowing 300 CFM intake port unless you crutch the crap out of it with a huge exhaust to intake split in the cam design. And that's no free lunch because it increases overlap, reduces low/midrange TQ (as soon as you crack that exhaust valve your cylinder pressure working on the piston goes bye-bye) and dirty's up the idle quality and fuel economy as well.
And I have to chuckle at your expert assessment (concerning flow numbers) that dry bench flow values are now a useless measurement
Aaaahhh.....the power of effective marketing/advertising. Lets not forget you have thirteen parts air (to every ONE part fuel) moving thru those intake ports and combustion chamber. Design an efficient high speed port that moves alot of air and for the most part proper fuel atomization takes care of itself (a problem with ported stock heads that need much more volume to achieve the same flow a well design clean sheet aftermarket approach can accomplish with less). Ultimately its the airflow your engine is capable of processing that's going to hinder or determine how much power the engine is able to generate. Focus on effectively moving alot more of it and watch the dyno numbers swing higher and your ET slips move in the opposite direction.
Speaking of other tools you might consider useless, have you made it to the dyno yet to verify your actual accomplishments and try to tune and optimize the package at the same time? Its money well spent as the proper dyno tune can not only produce more power but also improve the reliability of the package you just invested a ton of dough in...
-Tony
In the real world your 200 CFM exhaust port will work "OK" on a 270 CFM intake port but will not cut the mustard on a higher flowing 300 CFM intake port unless you crutch the crap out of it with a huge exhaust to intake split in the cam design. And that's no free lunch because it increases overlap, reduces low/midrange TQ (as soon as you crack that exhaust valve your cylinder pressure working on the piston goes bye-bye) and dirty's up the idle quality and fuel economy as well.
And I have to chuckle at your expert assessment (concerning flow numbers) that dry bench flow values are now a useless measurement
Aaaahhh.....the power of effective marketing/advertising. Lets not forget you have thirteen parts air (to every ONE part fuel) moving thru those intake ports and combustion chamber. Design an efficient high speed port that moves alot of air and for the most part proper fuel atomization takes care of itself (a problem with ported stock heads that need much more volume to achieve the same flow a well design clean sheet aftermarket approach can accomplish with less). Ultimately its the airflow your engine is capable of processing that's going to hinder or determine how much power the engine is able to generate. Focus on effectively moving alot more of it and watch the dyno numbers swing higher and your ET slips move in the opposite direction.
Speaking of other tools you might consider useless, have you made it to the dyno yet to verify your actual accomplishments and try to tune and optimize the package at the same time? Its money well spent as the proper dyno tune can not only produce more power but also improve the reliability of the package you just invested a ton of dough in...
-Tony
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Hey, I'm with a VAR now, first time outside a manufacturer in 10 years. We sell Cisco now, funny thing, that stuff is great.
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Like I said, I do it, every one does it.
I betcha that other manufactures would have a differing opinion on that.
That's all I'm saying. I find ZERO fault in that.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Phoenix AZ
But again, Tony is not in sales/marketing. YOU ARE, that may be true, but he's the actual DESIGNER of the product, so your comparison is worthless.
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
See Ron, you're framing the argument I am making totally wrong. My issue is not with a product, it's the reaction from many here to the products when one is picked that is not "cool"... And those reactions are totally based on bull****. Clear enough?
That is why I took the time, effort, and energy to construct six long posts of information to dispell the crap people are spewing here. If you are not a spewer of crap, I have no problem with you. Get it?
Look, you want to pick "experts" brains, go put your arguements up at speedtalk.com and see what happens, thats where most of them post it wont be here. Make sure and post a link, Ill pick up extra butter for the
We are all lucky we have aftermarket stuff to choose from. I can remember when options were limited to a few diffferent iron GM heads.
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
When they design things they are married to them and it does take an emotional investment. I have seen techs argue about one design over another design.
If you believe that a designer has no attachment to those things they design, you are so far off...
Let's use fuel injectors for an example. I betcha the guy who designed the disc injector would argue vehemently that the Bosh non disk design is inferior, and vice versa.
Don't tell me designers have no investment, does not hold water.
So in the scheme of worthless.....
And may I add, Deakins, look back, in this very thread asked for FACTS over MARKETING.
Thread Starter
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
Hey, I'll send you my document I used in the other thread, you post it up, and send us the link. I have no problem being wrong and learning in the process. I'm fine with that.
nice try.You do it (pushes cereal bowl towards Mikey) and tell me what kind of noise it makes, your arguement.
Personally I dont care for arguing.
Weighing things out, comparing, etc yes.
This will make you salivate, see if you can get him to post a thread here. You cant stay away from this, you know it.
Bottom of page 1
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Phoenix AZ
I work with engineers for networks and have for years.
When they design things they are married to them and it does take an emotional investment. I have seen techs argue about one design over another design.
If you believe that a designer has no attachment to those things they design, you are so far off...
Let's use fuel injectors for an example. I betcha the guy who designed the disc injector would argue vehemently that the Bosh non disk design is inferior, and vice versa.
Don't tell me designers have no investment, does not hold water.
So in the scheme of worthless.....
And may I add, Deakins, look back, in this very thread asked for FACTS over MARKETING.
When they design things they are married to them and it does take an emotional investment. I have seen techs argue about one design over another design.
If you believe that a designer has no attachment to those things they design, you are so far off...
Let's use fuel injectors for an example. I betcha the guy who designed the disc injector would argue vehemently that the Bosh non disk design is inferior, and vice versa.
Don't tell me designers have no investment, does not hold water.
So in the scheme of worthless.....
And may I add, Deakins, look back, in this very thread asked for FACTS over MARKETING.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
Greg, thanks for posting, I have always found your thoughts to be carefully considered. Your point in the paragraph above basically NAILS what I am trying to accomplish. There is WAAAYYY too much noise and WAAAYYYY too much crap being circulated as fact which has little basis in it. If my information simply helps you, I have accomplished something. I don't care what choices you make, if the information makes you stop, think, and consider and help you make the right choice, I was successful.
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Again, you appear to have the ability to read each argument and decide yourself. That's all I ask. Becusae Deakins says something that is hard to grasp, just re read it a couple times till it makes sense.
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Exactly, everyone is trying to sell something. I'm not, Deakins is not. SO personally, I discount those opinions from any source with a vested interest in the outcome. Seems many have a problem with that. Some people call it "nice" that a manufacture would participate in discussion, I call it aggressive selling. It's a matter of perspective.
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Again, you appear to have the ability to read each argument and decide yourself. That's all I ask. Becusae Deakins says something that is hard to grasp, just re read it a couple times till it makes sense.
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Exactly, everyone is trying to sell something. I'm not, Deakins is not. SO personally, I discount those opinions from any source with a vested interest in the outcome. Seems many have a problem with that. Some people call it "nice" that a manufacture would participate in discussion, I call it aggressive selling. It's a matter of perspective.
You missed one of my main points, John. I said everyone is trying to sell something. That includes any engine builder who posts here and you. Potential service is being sold and you are trying to "sell" the fact that you are "right".
You try to turn EVERY post into a "win" for your perspective! To me, that's what you're trying to sell. BTW: No matter how many time I read what Deakins says, I won't agree with everything he says. From my perspective, he is speaking to a different niche -- to a specific group. For example, in the AFR is best thread, Deakins' motor example was an 8K rpm motor. I thought that was irrelevant to most of this "crowd". Most of us don't go there. Personally, I believe he speaks to a smaller group than the group Tony is speaking to. Maybe I'm wrong.
But, I'm not a racer. I'm just a common-sense guy.