Todd, I searched high and low and this is the best solution I can come up with. It makes sense. The man is an engine builder and I am sure Tony could go there for the swap to ensure impartiality. This is an independent engine builder I found who happened to do a brodix motor. So what. AFR is paying him so if anything, that influences him no? Again, for the nth time, we are told AFR makes more power everywhere, now here's a chance to demonstrate that.

Tony has a point that going to a brodix dealer may be suspect, but certainly less suspect than Tony conducting his own challenge, and giving "ADVICE" wouldn't you say?

To keep that fairness I requested a set of heads that are on a shelf, as not to have a ringer set and be the equivelent product in the set. Fair enough no? Typically these tests involve the worst case for the competitor and best case for AFR, let's take that off the table and be fair, apples to apples.

I can find no more fair way to put an end to this once and for all. The opportunity is in front of us, I hope he steps up.

The bottom line is, as I will state again, we are told that smaller ports, more flow will make more power.

Now the excuses are starting, what's the cam, it's a carb, etc...etc...etc... that alone is evidence they don't believe their own bull****. Or have been lying to us all along.

I have been told in no uncertain terms on this forum that there is no combo that AFR will not make more power. All I am saying is before you ask someone for $1500-2000, back it up. I found a cheap, fast way to do it, and the backpeddling started. That alone should tell you what you need to know.

I hope this thread stays on topic about the challenge, and not about me. That's usually what happens and usually how it gets closed. I am not the subject here, my dyno numbers have no place in this discussion, this is only about one thing, the opportunity to do a real life head swap with real numbers. Anything else is a diversion.

 

That's the big problem; if you want an engine builder to swap out two sets of heads, swap multiple camshafts per set, and then properly tune and set up each engine for the dyno run so it's fair, is going to cost you big time. A true professional will get around $850 or more to dyno an engine and set up the fuel/timing curve (that's the minimum that we get anyways). What do you think the bill will be for several head/cam swaps and then multiple dyno runs?

Also, what's all this talk about Jsup using his car for this? I would think that if I had just paid a very well known engine builder to build (and back up with a warranty) an engine, and then paid someone very talented to cleanly install everything that I wouldn't be in a hurry to either pay it again or tear it out myself... From my understanding, the mule engine is sitting there ready to go; all that is needed is a set of heads.

 

and a pair of *****.....IT'S A JOKE PEOPLE!!!!

 

seems like a concensus is building here....
however,
since everyone here on this forum is a "moron" (http://www.dartheads.com/dartboard/showthread.php?t=347) what difference does it make to you?

 

I like this comparison and would love to see the results.

 

Just FYI, I spoke to the builder, you didn't, that 568 number is out of the box.

And I agree, AFR out of the box, THE COMPARATIVE PRODUCT!

If you want to go to Comp ports, the 210s fully ported from the factory put up 29 More HP, so let's accept that point, use the 195 Comp Ports, and set the bench level to 597. Apples to apples, out of the box, to out of the box, I said no different.

What you are not going to do is take a head that isn't apples to apples and make the comparison, that is what typically happens in these comparisons, the results are rigged. like the David and Goliath thread. Deakins pointed out just before the lock that there were many heads that COULD have been compared, but AFR chose not to, in typical fashion. So yeah, let's use comp ports, stipulate the 29HP difference to the fully ported IK210s and do that.

Again, the IK is Brodix's entry level head at $1000. So yes, let's be FAIR for a change, shall we?

 

The only consensus is that people would prefer to make this about me than about the challenge. Sorry to see you jump on that bandwagon, I thought more of you than that. In fact post for post more people want to see the test happen, so if there is ANY consensus, it's not the one you point to. This post is pathetic and beneath you.

And yes, people who prefer to spout off marketing bull**** without taking any position of merit, is a moron. I don't classify people, they classify themselves. People who talk about dry flow, under the curve, power are the table, these heads will make 40-50 more HP, I know a guy with a fast car, I heard a fast car, etc...yes, they are morons. And the scary part is they dole out advice as if they are experts, and people spend money on it.

Now how about we stop talking about me and start discussing how much less power the AFR is going to make on this test....Stop changing the subject.

The difference it makes to me is that morons are giving people advice where to spend money and primarily talking out of their ***. That's what difference it makes to me.

Now, back to the subject at hand.

 

Betcha $100 you never will. All this talk has been bull and the fact that this will never happens will just prove it. AFR will not make any more power than any other head, and it's all marketing hype.

This is the challenge, and if history is an indication, Tony will request this thread get locked, start a new thread, where he sets the rules, rigs the test, and the leg humpers will all join in and rejoice. You will be TOLD you learned something, but you didn't.

I guarantee you right now Tony is trying to figure out how to come up with a rigged test that we will swallow, as he has in the past. I don't swallow, many here do.

 

For someone that says they have no interest in knowing their motor makes (yet claiming it makes XXX hp) & initially expressed interest in getting AFRs on your car your reasons for all the bashing and challenges seems a little questionable.
Whats the real motive here?

 

I don't know how to make this any more clear to you. MY DYNO NUMBERS HAVE NO BEARING ON THIS CHALLENGE!!

Why should I rip up my car to make his marketing point? No my job, not my problem. I am a consumer I have nothing to prove.

Stop making this about me stick to the subject. I suppose you will not like the outcome of the proposed test so you perfer to change the subject. Now it is clear to everyone who will read this exactly what is happening.

My motive here is to once and for all place the bull**** we here in perspective and have people stop giving false advice to others looking to spend money.

I am tired of people talking out of their *** as experts, using bull**** numbers to make an invalid point and people go out and spend money on this stuff. What is the problem with educating people to make a decision and why is it so many have an interest that the decision come out a particular way. I have no dog in this fight, I don't care which product anyone picks. I do care if they pick a product based on self proclaimed experts who don't know their *** from hole in the ground and simply recite marketing text that is rigged.

People are bashing me, I am not bashing them. Pay attention. I get attacked first because I have the nerve to question forum dogma.

I say when AFR and the leghumpers tell me I'm leaving 40-50 HP on the table, prove it.

Seems once again, you prefer to make me the subject than the point here of the original post.

How about focusing on the challenge and not me.

 

I am not, nor have been on any BANDWAGON.......
what I see here about this whole thing isn't about cylinder heads.
People seem to want to see someone or something loose, it is rediculous. I personally could give a rats *** either way, my motor works just fine.
If it is truely about seeing performance, that is fine as well.

If decided that I needed more power I would call Reher Morrison, Sonny Leonard, Big Sal etc.etc.
Why do you think you have never, nor, will you ever see me post a question regarding motor parts selection here on this forum? To answer this, if I wanted a serious motor, and I believed in the skill and reputation from guys listed above, they can and will use whatever they see fit. If I am doing the build, I will choose what I see fit, and if I am giving someting up.....who cares, it's my bandwagon.

 

Right, you will choose what you see fit and I want others to do the same with the right information. Should people coming here looking for advice be given good advice, not popular advice? Informed advice not bull**** advice? Real advice, not marketing advice?

My primary disagreement with you is that you made the post about me. This isn't about me. Everyone who is afraid of the outcome is making this about me. And in doing so, yes, you are on the bandwagon.

Let's have the test, this is a valid mule, and be done with this, regardless of the result.

 

Sounds like you may be assuming some giving advice are doing it merely on something they "heard". You call them morons but how many heads have you dug into? Motors built, combos swapped yet you advise as if you know something and anyone else that pipes in couldnt possibly have a clue.
Many here have done it all and piped in with their real life experience ie wrenching, tuning, testing, etc to give their opinion. For you to assume, call them morons yet start advising yourself is misleading.

 

This would be an interesting comparison, but I do believe an apples to apples comparison is the 195 AFR head against the IK200 head, since they are similar in size. The IK 210 is a larger head and we do not have real dyno number for that head on this engine.

 

True, but the argument has been around smaller ports higher flow numbers. The 195 outflows the 210. The only issue is if the 195s are comp ports, we need to do apples to apples with the 210s.

If the 195s are street ports the out of box 200s will do.

It would be nice wouldn't it?

 

I spent a month with 4 engineers and two engine builders posted a six page result.

no one ever addressed those issues. No one wants to discuss it. IN fact, not even Tony discussed the merits of the points. He did change his tune a bit and argued that design is important and used terms such as reversion for the first time.

Again, you're making it about me. How about you get off me and get to the challenge. Unless you have nothing to argue about the challenge.

 

And the result is......?? We wil never know which is fine but if you dont care then why the big issue with what everyone else is doing?

Again, I would be interested to see most dyno results but in the end IMO what really tells the story is a time slip; how the car really runs.
My comment on the cam was merely a question out of curiosity, didnt sound like anythign guys are putting in their C4s which seemed to be the focus of the challenge in the first place; Take a few common combos guys are using, swap parts and post results.

 

The results were posted as a thread and when the leghumpers could not argue the science, rather than attack me as is happening here, the thread got full of insults and was closed. That's what happened.

What are you missing here? Someone asks a head question, they get fed a bunch of bull****, and spend money on something that will run like a dog because rather than take the time and effort to figure it out, people spout marketing bull.

Not a combination people put in C4s? Just another excuse. The contra is small ports big flow= power. Why wouldn't anyone put a motor that makes peak HP at 6000RPM in a C4 with a HR cam? Seems perfect to me. This is another line of bull I am sick of hearing, if it's not an AFR combo, it's the wrong combo and no one would ever use it. Exactly what Pr0zac was told when his AFRs didn't run. "you had the wrong combo".....

I perfer not to take this thread off topic any further. If you want start a new thread, IM me, etc.....

Let's stick to the challenge.

 

I see where this is going, everyone wants to blow smoke to obfuscate from the point of the thread because everyone knows the results will not validate their position.