Heat problems aren't a complete reason to swap. Sure the C5 rotors are a bit better and they are bigger, but spindle/brake ducting would probably go MUCH further. Lets remember that with the swapping we are hoping to increase the friction generated which corresponds with increased force and shorter stopping distances, this should equate to more heat being generated as well. Someone over in the AutoX/rr section just commented that swapping from the sawblades to an open wheel solved their RR'ing brake heat problems. It is speculative, but still...

 

Given your scenario and ground rules I agree. But there are C4s out there including mine that just did not stop. I just drive it as a street (DD) car. Could never lock up the brakes and standing on them would just slow you down. Had to leave lots of room to stop and emergency stops were (scary) impossible so you hoped you never got there.

With out telling a lengthy story I replaced everything over a period of time. Different pads, rotors, ABS and fluid + and never a real change. Finally changed to the J55 13” system a few years ago and finally the car was able to stop normally. I can now lock the wheels if desired and feel safe again.

Be happy yours works so well, many would like to know why some C4s stop well and some don't.

 

what kind of speeds are you running? Are you telling me the stock brakes could not stop you from a speed of - lets say 120 to 0 without fading in that stop? Repeated stops - I understand - but 1 stop?

something is very wrong here!

In the interest of full disclosure - i do have the C-5 brakes on my car - because I do autoX road racing and open road racing.

, but i'm asking because it seems to me - unless you are tracking this car - the conversion is all cosmetic. Bigger brakes = bigger friction - bigger friction doesn't nessisarily mean a quicker stop - there is a limit to the amount of friction to be applied without skidding the tires - once they skid - you can apply 42 million tons of friction - and it makes no difference - the tire has stopped - and you are skidding - and rolling friction on a tire is greater that non rolling - essentially - you skid - you stop slower ands longer, so if the stock brakes lock up your tires (which they do) then for one stop - bigger will not mean faster stops.

For the guy whose stock brakes would not stop the vette - something is seriously wrong - and whatever that issue was would not be cured with bigger brakes. hell I lost my master cylinder one time down in Parump - so not wanting to waste my money - I ran for a whole day without any power boost - I could still lock up those tires - but my left leg looked 2X as big as my right at the end of the day.

So to summarize - and see if we have a consensous - bigger brakes would dissipate heat better - reducing brake fade in a multiple hard breaking scenario.

Bigger brakes may give you better "feel" in application of brakes (I'n not sure on that one)

bigger brakes will not lessen the stopping distance in a car for 1 emergency or other application of brakes - because stock brakes are capable of applying enough friction to stop the wheel - and at that point braking distances and times get longer!

wider tires would reduce braking distance as you could apply more rolling resistance than a thin tire!

so thats my conclusions - others may have different ideas - but I appreciate it if you have physics and facts to back up your contentions

Carl Johansson

 

Trying to convince you would be a great effort but you can’t understand till you have seen these problems. I think the brakes were undersize for the car and that’s perhaps why GM went to the J55 set up. Brakes have been one of the biggest topics on the forum. If you search you can read for a week on this topic.

The earlier C4s with the single piston from what I understand did not have these problems as the 2 piston calipers (12” setup). Take a guess, maybe some of the calipers had less flex than some others and worked better. Never the less the exact answer or cause has never been confirmed as far as what I have heard.

 

Stocks are not even close to being adequate under heavy braking. I witness this my self in a will game of tag with a camaro ss. My brakes failed me and braking was greatly reduced. And all this was done on a street application. It matters how hard you ride them and what your doing. Im running the J55 with slotted rotors and hawks pads. Its all matters how your driving at the time. Street or track.

 

I've driven the 92 with 12", the 95 and 96 with J55.

The C4 brakes work fine as long you are not pushing it. I push all my cars to include my DD 2.3 5 Speed Focus. I installed the C5 Z06 brakes in my 95 and the improvement was amazing. There has been few "emergency" situations and I know the J55 brakes would have failed miserably.

I also purchased the C5 brakes for my CE LT4

 

WIth their lightweight motors and super lightweight flywheel and low curb weight with Numerically high gearing... they almost dont need brakes.


it pains me to hear this talk about how bad the stock 13" setup is. Our cars are quite old. I doubt there is ANYONE on this forum whos car brakes as it did new. Are your lines new? is your fluid fresh down to the last drop ? are your pads new? rotors new? tires new? master cyl new? brake booster new? Hell my friend bought a 96 LT4 2 summers ago and a friend of mine who drove his car (he has a 350noballZ) was saying how bad the c4 brakes were. For all I know the previous owner might have had the cheapest pads, never flushed the fluid and the rotors couldve been coated in engine oil. The car did brake horrible. then I took him for a ride in mine with relatively new rotors, pads, calipers, lines, master and booster and he nearly lost his eyeballs into my windshield at 140 mph when the merging lane onto a freeway was ending. And that was with moderate effort. Having the right combination of well maintained components and quality brake pads can make all the difference in the world.

Having bigger brakes is a 'feeling' too. Ever hear about how drivers in articles prefer certain cars on racetracks but theyre not the fastest around them? Bigger brakes can help slow a car with less effort and less heat so it can do it repeatedly.

 

If the stock brakes are fading that is more of a function of your poor heat tolerant pad, and fluid. Put track pads and high temp fluid in then try all that stopping. I've watched C4's race on the stock calipers, lap after lap. So don't be telling me they can't handle it.

fc_soldier were those Hawk HPS that faded? They are a terrible track pad and quickly faded when I tested them. They are not at all suitable for pushing the brakes. They are a decent street pad if not pushed.

 

How do you define "sufficiently"? NASCAR cars at places like Sears Point are a lot slower than cars with larger brakes like open wheel cars. If by sufficiently, you mean it's possible to stop, you could do that with just the rear brakes on your car. That doesn't make the fronts unnecessary.

You also said "make do with what's feasible". Definitely. Great advice. But what NASCAR uses has little to do with it.

 

Why not research what the experts have to say...

STOPTECH

NASCAR may use a 'small' brake rotor due to wheel requirements, but they also have systems that circulate the brake fluid thru the 'hot' section. Their ~'13' inch systems have nothing to do with a Corvette's. Heck even some braking systems (not NASCAR to my knowledge) use water sprayed on the rotors to cool.

BBK's are about heat capability...with some increased precision as well (floating rotors vs floating calipers)

J55 brakes came from showroom stock Corvette/Camaro racing of the late 80's. The single piston setups were inadequate in racing situations and the quick release pad design was a bonus on pit stops.

Also realize the early model C4's were 205 HP...now a ZR1 is 638HP! As power goes up, one has to increase other aspects of a car or it becomes less 'rounded.'

I know folks get away with an OEM brake setup with higher friction pads and cooling...and some can't. Lots of variation in drivers, equipment, tracks, etc.

 

You win, I apparently cant get my point across.

 

C5 ZO6 pad with two track days (terrible track pad) on it in a C5 caliper:



I should have rotated them. A better caliper won't taper them like this. I wouldn't mind a big brake kit but they cost to much. I can just rotate the pads and there's lots of used C5 track pads for sale too.

 

My brakes are awful and they have new pads/rotors/fluid/BB/MC

 

The pads had about maybe 600 miles or so on them when I pushed the limits.

Basically if you push the c4 brake system to the limits it will fold on you. The once and awhile performance stop and go wont hurt a thing. While as a bigger better system that allows bigger grip and well ventilated rotors will def. out preform on the track and on the street.

Take a rookie on the track (Me) and take a experiance driver on the track with the same exact car. Then have them do 10 time laps and I'm willing to bet my left shoe that the experianced guy will control and handle the braking way better than me. So for me to believe that people go laps on stock setup I think you are right. Im willing to bet if I went to the track with my "stock" set up Id have brake limitations. Until I learn the ropes.

Nothing like a good topic to heat up the forum. Keep it clean keep it coming.

So who is going to call Baer, Wilwood, and brembo, tell them that they got the wrong idea and they need to put the c4 j55 on the vettes. Stupid New ZR1 running brembo it needs a c3 brake kit.

All it comes down to is use of your vette and how deep the pockets go.

 

Maybe I don't drive as conservative as some but there have been a few times where my J55's with HAWK HPS pads and SS lines were just barely enough on my DD. I'd feel much more comfortable with an improved braking system on my vette. I'm going to give the C5's a try next.

 

Interesting brake test. Brake Test From the StopTech website.

The test is on a 350Z but going from stock 11.5in rotors and calipers to 12.75in rotors and brembo calipers on ave stopped less than 1 foot shorter from 60 on average. They test some other set ups also but the biggest difference from stock is not stopping distance but heat. Check out the chart on the bottom of the page.

 

Nice changes in temps. I bet this would help other components within the brakes are to last longer, such as wheel bearings, as they get real hot.

 

ouch Two days!?

 

Since this is a series of opinions and anecdotes, I'll join in. If anyone starts to use real research then I withdraw the following.

I use HP Plus pads on a stock 86 system and keep the brakes in top condition. I have run over a dozen track days and am in HPDE3, usually with a passenger, at Infineon, Thunderhill and Laguna Seca. I haven't had a fade problem yet. That is not competition driving but it is pushing your car for 20 minutes on road courses.

When I go to ceramic street pads I feel like I need to use both feet to stop the same car, but those pads make very little dust and last a long time. It takes a few days to mentally/physically make the transition and I would never use those pads on the track. Same goes for the older Dunlops on the car. With those tires and street pads, it is just not safe to drive on a track. Put on the slicks and Plus pads and it's OK for my level of driving.

Maybe it is the usually pleasant temperatures or the fact that a stock 86 will only go so fast, but I don't think that a new braking system is required. As I understand things, you should try to drive fast, brake really hard, and then get off the frigging brakes. Under those conditions, there should be time for the disks to cool enough for a decent, recently changed fluid and appropriate pads.

In my opinion, most braking upgrades are auto bling bling, including stainless steel wrapped lines. Especially useless and actually damaging are things like drilling, grooves, and freezing treatments. A good thick iron disk handles heat really well. Drill holes, make grooves, and add alloys to keep the disk pretty and you have made things worse. The SS wrapped lines are to prevent external, physical damage to the lines. The wrapping does nothing for brake line hardness and resistance to pressure, that's a function of the tube carrying the fluid.

However, I do believe that additional pistons allow for better brake feel and would rather have them. But I don't think that they can stop the car any faster.

Yes, I have seen the glowing ceramic disks of Formula 1, but that ain't me or my car.

 

I think that if you run whatever brakes you have to the point of diminished performance, or even failure, on a regular basis, then you need bigger and/or better brakes. The brakes you choose should be "tuned" to your application. You may be trading unsprung weight for long-term or high-intensity peformance, but each driver's satisfaction in their driving experience varies based on their individual expectations.
My stock brakes provide satisfactory performance given the way I enjoy driving my car. If your brakes work for you, yay! If not, spend all you want, you'll earn more.