C409

..... What you don't "get" is what I really am getting at ... you need to re-read that post and go look at the ports the way I'm indicating ... you need to look to see what you never noticed before .....

Tom400CFI

Look man...I've looked a plenty an intake port. I've read your cryptic, "mysterious" posts enough.

Why don't you just use your vocabulary and typing skills, and tell us clearly, WTF you're talking about. What's with the elusive nature? Geezus.

T. Wayne Nelson

ooooooooeeeeeeee------

ch@0s

The LS came with all that you dont have to go out and get it. Add a cam and springs to an LS1 and you are in 400 RWHP territory... A set of cheap ported 243 heads and you are in the 440 RWHP territory.

C409

..... Calm down ... Its not worth it ....... Sorry about the mystery , but its not the easiest thing to describe in words ..... some of you will enjoy a real EUREKA moment ... the rest of you will get combative ........

dizwiz24

The thing no one here has mentioned is its all about boost.

If it takes me an extra 4 psi of boost, on an sbc, to compensate for the freer flowing lsx head/cathedral magic then so be it.

ch@0s

C409 I want to apologize, my post was not very enlightening. The point I want to make is... after contemplating for almost a year I realized I could not rebuild my L98 and make the kind of power the LSx makes out of the box without breaking the bank.

MavsAK

But thanks to that magic, the LSX can run more boost more safely
Maybe not much more just due to -that- factor but it might well make a difference. Airflow is airflow.

C409

..... No offense taken , I fully agree that the LS engine is the superior engine ... Heck , it was designed by using the best of the best research and development that has been bestowed on the 'ol small block over the past 60 years or so and every other competitive and technological advance made in engine design and development ... This thread was started to stimulate thought and discussion about how power is made , not to argue about which engine is better ... the ONLY reason a comparison was even brought up is because of the obvious power disparity between old and new sbc ... I know the entire LS package contributes to its power production , but in the end we are talking about air pumps ... air , fuel , compression , and ignition ........ Air is obviously #1 ... whether its pushed , pulled , or just plain dragged in ... the LS intake is where the biggest advantage is ... imagine a Hillborn injector set-up from the 70s and then bend the airhorns down til they're curved enough to fit under the hood rather than sticking out of it ... without changing their length ... and voila ! you have an LS intake manifold ..........

dizwiz24

This is so true And you have a lighter weight platform.

If i was an l98 guy, i would so go lsx.

Tom400CFI

Yeah man...not being "Combative" here...simply trying to get you to articulate your thoughts. Once again...you haven't.

Maybe it really isn't that important.

dizwiz24

Heres a good question:

How do these lsx (and the new motor) compare to the best from mercedes amg, bmw, porsche, ford, ferrari, etc.

Im not sure what benchmark you would use (ex. Horsepower per liter, better yet use lbs engine weight per hp developed)

It does seem like the competition has turned to turbos, forced induction, where needed

Tom400CFI

In power/lb and also in power/space (over all engine LxWxH) the Gen III^ is at worst very competitive, if not industry leading. It is very rarely if ever industry leading in hp/liter.

ch@0s

All those guys are swapping out their engines for LSx.. No kidding.

MavsAK

HP per liter is a load of crock manufacturers use to pad their crotches with.

HP Per Pound is where it's at, and the LSX is still the class leader there. the LS9 is 50 lbs lighter than the turbo charged GTR V6 just for example.

dizwiz24

With 2 less cylinders and a weight adding front diff.

power to weight is where its at

93 ragtop

Quote:

Originally Posted by ch@0s

The LS came with all that you dont have to go out and get it. Add a cam and springs to an LS1 and you are in 400 RWHP territory... A set of cheap ported 243 heads and you are in the 440 RWHP territory.

That's just the way it is. Years ago, the flat head v8 was the hot ticket. The SBC came around, and bottom line, it was a better platform.
Its the same story with the SBC vs. LS motors.
Its not going to be worth the money to try and make a SBC run as well as a LS. If it could have been done, GM would have just improved the SBC design, instead of spending money engineering, and tooling for the LS series motors.
There is no secret that someone else understands, that can be figured out and applied to the SBC to make it equal to a LS. Are any of us so vain, that we feel we know more then the engineers that designed these motors?

Edit to add, I assume this post is aimed at Street or Street-Strip motor, and not full blown race motors.

Beach Bum

In my opinion, you can make similar power with Gen 1 23 degree set-up, but you have to make compromises in driveability to do so. I have an LS7 (427 ci) motor in my Z06, I put a mild cam in it (220/240 @ .050"), boiler plate cylinder head port and headers and the motor,as per Katech, it is 620 HP and 570 ftlbs. I built a 436 sbc gen 1 motor with AFR 227 comp heads, 238/246 @ .040" and a well ported Miniram 2 intake and probably came up at least 25 HP and maybe as much as 40-50 HP of the LS7 motor.

I could have easily matched the LS7 motors power, but it would have taken more cam to do so, and possibly a jump to a solid roller cam.... hence the compromise. But, a lot of guys in Z06's put in 230-240 @ .050" hyd roller cams and depending on other little things, will typically make 650-700 HP. That is pretty stout for a factory motor with a hyd cam.

In my opinion, its 80% in the cylinder heads. As per West Coast Cylinder Heads (WCCH), my LS7 castings flow 370 cfm from the factory and after the boiler plate porting, flow 395 cfm.... many who more aggressively port these are well into the 400's as is a few of the aftermarket castings. My CNC ported AFR's tested 325 cfm on an independent flow bench. WCCH says the LS3 cylinder head from the factory flows 325 cfm and up around 360 cfm with their base port. Thus, the discussion, if trying to improve on the 23 degree market probably has to center around the cylinder head. The 18 degree market is already easily competitive with the LSx.

In reality, if you want to be competitive with an LSx at the track, I'd consider focusing on optimizing the power that you have, hence, dial in those short times. Many in the LSx crowd do not do a good job optimizing the power they have, hence they run the MPH, but not the ET. You'll probably never be competitive with them on the Dyno, but you might beat them to the finish line if you do things right.

Tom400CFI

whole heartedly