Not as simple as you think. Nobody knows how to tune an 85. Plus, my tuner is tuning regular driving as well, which the guys on the dyno aren't going to do.

 

If he's not tuning on a dyno, with your car, he's not going to do as good of a job as a dyno is going to do for you. These cars, yours in particular is 29 now or getting close to it. Every engine that's that age is different, even with a complete top end like you've done.

Most shops that can tune on a dyno, can tune for daily driving duty.

All you need to do, is review the thread and see what progress has and hasn't been made up to this point. You guys are taking best guesses, when what you need at this point is solid data. You can't get that without a dyno at this point.

I'd find someone that can tune, that you can physically drive to, even if it's a few hours away on a flatbed at this point. You need to know more about what's going on and be able to tune accordingly on the fly.

 

I'm telling you, I already know it's down on power. I'm only dynoing it so everybody will finally believe me.

 

I know it may seem like the secret is in the tune, but I'm not going to pick up 100 horsepower after already being in the right ball park and fine tuning off of it. Honestly, at this point I just want to get it to have a driveable and decent tune so I can drive it for the summer, there's way to many variables for it to be worth a $500 dyno tune 10 hours away for me to tear down the motor, change a bunch of stuff and have to go do it all over again. Doesn't make sense to me. The motor has 106k on it, I know it's tired out. Smoke doesn't just magically come out of the breather filters and not be produced by something. From a scientific stand point, if it was oil smoking, the oil level would decrease and it doesn't. Therefore I know it's blow by. It was sort of like a steaming tea pot pouring smoke out the breather filter.

 

How "down" do you think it is?
looking at my engine building program if I've found the right specs on your cam and have your total induction flow right, if the car is fully and properly tuned being "down" is the last words that you should be thinking of using.

A tune is everything for fuel injection. Particularly when you start talking cams like the one you're using. A stock or near stock tune isn't going to come even close to making the right hp. You're either making compression or you aren't. If you're getting serious blow by, I doubt you're making 10 to 1.
But even pushing your car down to 8.5 to 1 you should be abit north of a C5 vette.

Are you 100 percent certain you're firing on all 8 cylinders?

 

I'd say it's around 300 hp at the crank

 

You definitely need to take it to the dyno then.
300 chp isn't hard to do with a TPI car, with the LTR setup in place.
A miniram should be a cakewalk to 300 chp.

The tune is way off base, or that engine is completely junk (ie spun bearing, or running on 7)

Take her somewhere that you can get a tune done. Ask around this forum to find someone that's able to dyno tune an 85. I'm about 80 percent sure you'll find one at least a few hours away.

 

It's not sealing properly that's why it's doing it. It's not like you have to look hard for the smoke, it's sorta like holy crap what the hell is on fire?

 

The kind of blow by and oil burning to be sapping 100 ponies out of the car, you'd definitely notice it at idle. It'd have a hard time even running, starting, and you'd be going through a 1/4 of oil in a week during normal operation.

You'd also be leaving a nice thick blue gray cloud everywhere you went when you got on it from a stop light.

 

Well I wonder what's coming out of the breather then? Also, I do notice something at idle. It surges.

 

It could be the valves not seating properly. Blowby is gas and moisture is getting Down into the crank case. Have you checked your oil for gasoline and fuel? If it's That bad you should be seeing it in your oil.

Surging idle, could be any number of several sensors, (from TPS, to Mass Air Flow, to IAC) or just simply the tune not being what it should be, or uneven compression.
This is why it's so important to get it on the dyno, and in the hands of someone that has experience with these cars.

Some of this you can test your self with a compression tester, and a leak down test, and a code scanner (see if it's Stored any codes. Sometimes it will not throw a CES light). If it's not throwing any codes, and compression is good, then most of your pony issues are in the tune.

Drain and check the oil, do a compression test, jump the ALDL ports. If everything checks out there, it's dyno time with someone that can do indepth tuning and testing.

 

I already tested with a compression and leak down tests. The results were good. I even mentioned that to Ed Wright, who told me a leak down test and compression test doesn't mean **** when it comes to sealing while running.

 

It's not in the tune, because I spoke to Big Daddy Performance in Lakewood, NJ who told me, if my AFRs are around 12:1 and my timing is 32 degrees, nothing in the tune is going to make a difference of 100 hp. My total timing was previously 35 degrees in which it lost SOTP torque, it's only when I dropped it down a few that some more torque was gained. And it wasn't a lot.

My car can probably beat an automatic C5 with a 2.59 gear ratio or whatever the low one is that they use. But against a manual C5 with 3.42s, it's either neck and neck or I'm behind. I've driven both, frequently.

 

Oh yes it does.
I can gaurantee that I can to do a compression check on my garbage hauler and it will tell you exactly what the oil stains, loss of oil, fouling plugs and complete lack of horsepower and torque does every time I haul the trash out to the dump.

Your next step here, is to check your oil for gasoline and water contamination. If your tune was worth anything, for it to be losing 100 horses you'd be seeing stains everywhere by now with as long as you've been fighting this. You'd definitely be seeing it in oil loss if nothing else.

Also Feel means nothing. My C4 feels more stout than an LS3 equipped Camaro SS with the performance rear gearing, up to 50 mph. Doesn't mean that it is. The power curve on the engine sim that I'm looking at of your build doesn't hit extremely hard downstairs either. Stick her on a Dyno, or on a 1/4.

 

I trust anything that Ed says because multiple times on Facebook he has been right about people's problems. This is Ed's all motor car by the way.

 

And I'm telling you straight up man, if you were getting blowby so bad you were losing almost 1/4 of your car's power potential. You would see it.

It'd smoke Everywhere, not just high rpm driving, you'd definitely have oil going missing, it'd be fouling spark plugs, and you'd likely find gasoline and water in the oil.

Drain your oil, see what's going on. The kind of condition that would cost 100 horsepower, will definitely show up in the oil in regards to piston rings.

If you don't find anything in the oil, pour it back in. If there is something wrong, then you found your problem, drop that engine out and either rebuild the bottom end or get another engine.

Your car would be a real smoker, like my garbage hauler is.
Drop the pan while you are at it and take a gander at your bearings, connecting rods and piston skirts.
100+ horsepower is SERIOUS engine damage territory.
There are all kinds of symptoms than just a little smoke at high rpm.

 

Here's the conversation between me and Ed, I'm green, Ed is red.

If I was to do a running compression test and the results come out good, would that indicate that my motor is just as good as a fresh motor?

Nope. Much more to it than that. Google "ring seal". Maybe there is some reading for you. I don't have time to try to type it all out.
Kids on message boards have no clue where the hp is. They just want to throw parts at them.
Ring seal while cranking the starter, and running at higher RPM are two different things. No relation.

Ed

Sent from my iPhone

Google "piston ring seal"

Sent from my iPhone

I don't know if it matters but my cross hatches were still visible when I had the heads off. I'm not really finding much info with that search other than people explaining to me how rings and oil seal the cylinder. If I were to find out where I'm at in terms of rings sealing at high RPMs, what kind of testing should I perform?

Blow- by (crank case pressure) testing on an engine dyno is how you know. A good dyno has instrumentation for logging that during a pull. I have a fitting welded to my driver's side valve cover to connect that sensor when on the dyno to keep tabs on my ring seal.
More power there than cam changes. I'm talking about compression sealing. Seeing hone cross hatch doesn't mean they are straight and round. Matter of fact: you won't see a cross hatch in my cylinders before it is ever started. Proper cylinder wall finish is a big deal. Different than what GM put in there to make their oil stopper rings seal so they don't come back to the dealership with oil burning complaints. That is their concern. Not making big power. Things are done much differently in 2014 than 1985.
If the fueling & timing is where they belong, there is no other magic in the tuning. I can't fix it for you.
My old 383" LT1 makes over 530 at the tires through an unlocked 4400 RPM converter. I have had several 383" LT1 cars come in that made less than 300 hp at the tires. Same parts a 400 hp LT1 makes. That difference is the machine shop and engine builder.
No tuning can overcome that.

Sent from my iPhone

Okay. I had held my engine at 4k RPMs still one time and watched smoke pour out of my breather filter so I guess that would be my problem. I'm going to make arrangements with a dyno this week to get a baseline run down. And I guess they would be able to see how much blow by I have.

I think I'm going to save up for a 383 stroker short block with the crank and everything, that way it will already be professionally done. And I'll use a roller cam with that. That probably won't happen till winter time.

Thanks for your help.

A chassis dyno probably won't have a sensor for that. Higher end engine dyno cells often have them. If you see smoke out a breather, your not sealed up.

Sent from my iPhone

A couple irrelevant emails later and he said this:

Your backfiring, hesitation, and your idle can be fixed in the tuning. Not your lack of power.

Sent from my iPhone

 

In an Ideal world where your tune and engine are perfect, you should be thumping out 450 ponies at 5500 RPM and holds until 6k. Torque peaks at 4400 at 450 ft lbs.
In Daily Driving RPMs
1500 to 3k you're making in the 90s of horsepower to 225.
1500 to 3k torque: 300 to 400.
SOTP wise it's not going to Feel Fast looking at the curve especially as the torque nearly flat lines briefly at 2500 to 3000 RPM before it begins pulling upwards.

(By the way that last bit is a load of crock. There's more to engine tuning than timing and AFR. This is precisely why those chips you buy in the mail aren't worth **** )

Bad sensors will also screw with your power generation substantially.

Let's put it this way, you've been fighting this car for what almost two months now that we're aware of. You've been following guys like Ed Wright and other guys on FB. But you've not made any forward progress.

It's not like you can actually Get Worse at this point.

Have you ever pulled the oil pan? If my car were down over 100 horses and I wasn't seeing smoke out the tail pipes, or serious oil losses I'd pull that pan so fast the bolts would be hot coming as they hit the floor, and I'd be testing every sensor on the car. Especially if I thought the tune was OK.

Put this in perspective for you, you are the equivalent of being down Two cylinders from what your projected hp should be. The program I use claims to be 97 percent or better accurate to real world engine dyno results. If it turns out that you really are sitting at 300 chp, you've got serious problems going.

 

On a 1/4 mile calculator, 450 hp on a 3400 lb car race weight should be low 12s, not taking into account the 3.75s that I have. This car is no where near low 12s. It might be able to pull a low 13 in the best conditions and best traction and best shifting.

This car never leaves the shop. Why? Because I am always testing everything to try and figure out why it's down on power. After not being able to figure out anything other than that I had a little too much timing, there's only 1 other possibility. My fuel pressure is good, my ignition system is great because it actually stunned me for a second when I got shocked from it, almost like a taser. My Wideband sensor says my AFRs are in the 12s. My computer is properly advancing timing. And it's smoking out the breather. And in my experience with this setup having my tuner throw AFRs all over the place, there was a difference of maybe 10-20 horsepower from going to 11:1 - 12:1, or 12:1 to 13:1. But like I said, watching the speedometer on my car, and a C5 Corvette, the C5 definitely gets up there quicker. There should be a big difference in feel from a low 12 second car and a low 13 second car.

Like Ed said, there is a difference in sealing for oil and sealing for compression.

 

Not 100 ponies worth there isn't, and 2 cylinders worth of power it isn't.
And I wouldn't let Ed anywhere near my Lawnmower Engines if he thinks otherwise.

Drain the oil and drop the oil pan.
Drive the car for a couple of weeks, and see if you have any oil loss. Watch the back end of the car at the stop lights, and as you go up hill.

Did you time using a Vbox? Or did you just "one Mississippi two Mississippi..." ?

Like I said, I'm looking at your power and torque curves right now, and I can tell you straight away, that the car wouldn't feel any bit properly quick with as gradual as the increase is until peak HP and Torque.

You need to put it on a dyno, because the way this power curve looks? It's not a Kick You In The Crotch then shove you backwards kick in the pants monster.