Howdy Folks!!...;
I was over on the AK-47 forum today, and in "General Discussion", they were talking about ZDDP (Zink in oil). They mentioned that ZDDP in motor oil (or lack of) can damage engines with "Flat Valve Tappets". They mentioned that in in 2004 all engines had roller lifters/roller cam conversion and the lack of Zink in the oil didn't cause damage to the cam lobes. Now my Vette is an "88" 35th anniversary edition... does it have flat valve tappets or the other type??....

Thanks
Fast Freddie

 

In '87 The Corvettes went to Hydraulic roller cams. If you have your original motor in there you are OK.

 

You're fine. The vettes went roller in '87. I use a ZDDP additive in my '85.

 

Thank you Sirs!!...

 

Just curious-- what additive do you use?

I've been using Mobil 1 High Mileage in my '85 because it has 1100 ppm zddp. But given the problematic interactions with the cats, I'm always thinking that it's just a matter of time until that high zddp version is dropped/outlawed.

Thus I would be in the market for an additive.

 

They come in 1, 4, or 6 bottle packages. I usually get 4 at a time. I add 1 bottle every oil change. Also have noticed that when my car leaks oil, I just top it off with oil and haven't had any problems. I had burned up 2 quarts of oil one time because of my valve seals. Didn't replenish the ZDDP additive in the oil, and I didn't have any problems.

https://www.kirbanperformance.com/pr...+ADDITIVE.html

 

Great-- thanks for the info.

Do you have any idea if the zinc works the same when you add it yourself vs. if they incorporate it at the factory?

It could be that the oil manufacturer just dumps it in at the factory just like you would at home, but sometimes chemicals have to be mixed in certain ways (e.g. with certain catalysts) for them to work correctly.

You heard any negatives to just dumping in zddp additives at home?

 

I have no idea in regards to that, and I haven't heard anything negative about it. Like I said I've been doing it for a while with no problems. But its better than not adding anything at all...

 

I hope you're right!

The problem is that if it wasn't working one wouldn't know it. If zddp additive is not working your tappets and/or cam lobes would be wearing away and you'd have no idea until they failed.

Most likely the additive does work-- if it didn't there would likely be people complaining about it on the interwebs, and I haven't seen that. So I probably should quit worrying about it.

Thanks again for the info.

 

I use Quakerstate Defy oil. No need for additive. 85 with 85,000 miles.
Info.....



Name: Quaker State Defy
Description: Quaker State Defy is a new kind of motor oil that saves car owners money by extending the life of their engines, especially ones with miles on them. It does so with an advanced anti-wear system proven in tests to prevent up to 98% of future engine wear.
Details:
Quaker State Defy saves car owners money by stopping engine wear in its tracks. In recent tests with real engines, Quaker State Defy was shown to prevent up to 98% of future engine wear, extending the life of engines.

It does so thanks to an advanced anti-wear system that greatly increases the amount of zinc in the oil. Zinc has long been recognized as an outstanding anti-wear agent in combustion engines. Oil makers, however, had been forced to limit the amount of zinc in modern oils because it interfered with the performance of current emission system equipment.

With Quaker State Defy synthetic blend, we’ve innovated a way to add 50% more zinc-based anti-wear additives (ZDDP) than the latest GF5 oil specifications call for, without risk to emission system equipment.

Quaker State Defy is especially welcome news for owners of older and used cars, but they needn’t wait ‘til they reach 75,000 miles. The sooner they start using it, the sooner they can stop engine wear in its tracks.

 

I've been using Lucas. The local O'Reilly's has it on the shelf. Even give my lawn mower engines a sip at oil changes now.

I've done a little googling, but haven't found a good, recent listing of oils and their zinc and phosphorus levels. Anyone have a link to something fairly recent?

Thanks,
Carl

 

One of the most inexpensive sources of zinc is STP additive.

 

I haven't looked at STP in 35 years, but if I remember right it was very, very thick and changes the viscosity of your oil, but I also have read that it does contain a good amount of zinc. Don't know for sure...we read a lot of stuff on the web.

 

I looked into this fairly extensively a couple years ago. My answers below are based on memory-- I could be mis-remembering on a couple of them, but here's what I determined:


Looks interesting, but it appears that they're not releasing the zddp ppm specs. No way I'd use it until I knew that number (see below).

Here's the spec for Mobil 1 High mileage. 1100 ppm zddp plus seal conditioners.

This is purely anecdotal, but I'm inclined to believe the seal conditioners are effective. I have two 1985's (both purchased in 2011), both had oil leaks, one was worse than the other (and was failry bad). One of the previous owners had receipts for oil changes, and he had used standard dino oil. The other (the bad leaker) is also confirmed to have had standard dino oil (there was an oil change sticker on the windsheild for an oil change before I got it-- called the place and their records confirm dino oil).

I switched to the Mobil 1 High Mileage (that includes a seal conditioner), wondering what would happen with my leaks since changing from dino to synthetic has the reputation of making leaks worse. However, I was optimistic since, in several of the many oil threads on this forum, many had said that that reputation is either a myth or actually a *good* sign (that the oil is entering and cleaning areas that dino oil cannot reach). One of the Amsoil sellers also said that the seal conditioners were extrememly effective.

Anyway, I did the switch and the oil leaks on both cars increased significantly-- confirming the experience of many. I didn't have the time to do anything about it, so I decided it would just have to leak until I did.

However, after about six months, the leaks got better, and now (about a year and a half later), both cars leak quite a bit less than they did. The one that had a low leak is barely leaking anything at all, the bad leaker is now leaking at about the rate the better one did before the change.

I'm thinking that perhaps the consensus information on this forum is correct in that synthetic is better, gets into tighter spaces, and keeps things cleaner. This property, in turn, can cause leaks, but seal conditioners will swell the seals slightly to take care of that.

Again, my story is anecdote and not science, but so far I'm pretty happy with my oil choice.

Again, this is from memory, but my understanding is that, back in the day, STP did boost zinc by quite abit, but now it doesn't. Last I looked, STP wouldn't release their zddp spec, and private testing indicated that it was pretty low.

My understanding is that zddp somehow fouls catalytic converters and, with the advent of roller tappets, is not needed. Thus zddp levels was lowered by law, and STP had to lower their level as well. I read that any high zddp oil was supposed to be labeled and have weights "for racing only." If that's true, I don't know how Mobil 1 High Mileage gets away with their high levels, and fear that they somehow won't for long. That's also why I don't trust anything (like Defy) that won't state their spec, and am always interested in additives. Also, if I ever tear my engine down, I think I'll convert to rollers-- they're generally better anyway.

Yep-- I strongly considered STP, but after quite a bit of reading I decided that the current formula wouldn't help the zinc situation by very much and I don't want my oil any thicker.

So that's my reasoning (as far as I can remember) for what I did and the results so far. I'm still really curious as to whether zddp additives are just as effective as oil made witht the zddp in it, as my guess is I'll be needing it someday if/when high zddp Mobil 1 disappears.

Hope someone can chime in on that!

 

The current formula still has a high concentration of ZZDP. My flat tappet cam has been fed a half pint of STP with Mobil1 for the past 20K miles. Oil pressure is as always 40-45 at 2000, 30 @ idle. For a street application I'm comfortable with this alternative to the high mileage Mobil blend that is sometimes not always available on the shelves.

My two cents and it works for me.

 

Do you have the spec for the zddp concentration in the STP and what the final concentration of zddp is when it is diluted 1/2 pint into 5 quarts?

My understanding is that you need at least 1000 ppm zddp final concentraion for a flat tappet engine, 1100-1300 is better, over 1500 is overkill and over 1800 can actaully be bad.

My memory is that there wasn't all that much zddp in STP, and once diluted it only increased the final concentration by about 40 ppm.

Thus a 750-850 ppm zddp oil (pretty common specs) would still be less than 800-900 ppm after STP addition.

Again, that's from memory of my study of forums on the interwebs-- I could be totally wrong in my understanding of the STP spec. Please correct me know if you know different.

BTW, I've had no trouble finding the Mobil 1 High Mileage. It's always on the shelf at both my local Advance auto parts and at my Walmart (at nearly half the price as Advance!)

Edit: You're in California-- maybe your state law doesn't allow high zddp oil due to stronger environmental regulation?

 

Nope. The problem is cat clogging with the fed.
If Kali starts dipping our crank cases we are for a real world of hurt.

Its been a number of years ago that I researched the PPM.
A few friends and I started comparing notes when their old 30-40's motors started loosing camshafts. The Amsoil additive was the magic fix then along came the high mileage oils. We sat down and came up with a "garage" mix that looked good on paper then was used in a fresh Pontiac rebuild that had just flushed a cam. That ones been running for a good while too. Well beyond the first cam. I did a cam swap in my 86e and used the same formula after break-in. She's seen some fun times on the road since. Still pulling strong. We can over/under analyze the concentration all we want. I know it works for my engine, and wouldn't be on here saying anything to cause anyone else grief for their engines.

Now all that said, the best bet is the Mobil1 High-Mileage blend. That's a fact.



Interesting note C3 Gen

Use this search string in Google -- zddp stp oil additive -- lots of info





.

 

Some states go beyond what the feds say-- thought California might possibly be doing that in this case.

What was the garage mix? I was trying to do that myself, mixing the high zddp "racing" oil with regular oil to get the right combination of properties. After a day or so of calculating, I ran into the Mobil 1 and it was problem solved so I gave up on making my own mix. But I would be interested in other's mixes (see below).

So far, so good for me! Leaks improved, and 1100ppm zddp should mean that my tappets are happy! However, I will repeat that my story is just anecdote. There could be other reasons that my leaks have improved. Both my '85's had low mileage when I got them (confirmed by clean carfax's) meaning they had been driven very little over many years. After my purchase, I actually drive them on a regular basis! (Crazy, I know, but I actually enjoy driving my c4's! ). So it's possible that just driving the cars more has refreshed the seals and the leaks would have improved even without the Mobil 1's seal conditioners. But either way, the main reason I use it is the 1100ppm of zinc, so it doesn't really matter to me if the seal conditioner is effective. (But my gut feeling is that it is!)

Yep-- ran into that post during my research phase. Note the rep will not give the actual ppm-- kind of suspicious to me. If it really raises the level, why don't they not only give out, but loudly advertise their levels?

Oh yeah, it's easy to find lots of info on STP-- and most of it's not good. Nobody can get an actual number out of the company, and private VOA's all seem to show that, depending on the version used, STP either does little to add to the zddp levels, or actually dilutes it!

On forums like bobstheoilguy, I can't remember anyone defending STP; quite the contrary-- a very common description of STP on that forum is "snake oil." Not my words-- I'm no expert. But I never found any support for STP based on any kind of analytics. The only people positive on it supported it on the basis of "I've used it and had no problems." Any actual chemical analysis that I saw seemed to show no basis for any positive effects and pretty much all the "lubricatnt gurus" dismissed it out of hand. And the fact that the company will not produce a number seems to confirm the negative judgements.

But if anyone has evidence that I missed, please post it to correct the record. I've got no agenda against STP, so if anyone knows of any analysis that shows something different from the links I provided, please post them. In fact, the retro-nostalgia part of me really wants it to work-- I was originally excited that the solution to my zinc problem would be using the "Racer's Edge!"

All that said, I always keep my eye on this issue. Seems like anytime I find something that really works and is just perfect for some application I have-- it's discontinued within a couple years.

So the pessimist in me says the clock is ticking for Mobil 1 High Mileage with 1100ppm zddp which will put me in the market for a new solution for the zddp problem...

 

If you go by "I ran it. No problem" and declare a product good, we can say the same for neon lights and spoilers. The question is whether you have scientific proof that it is good or whether it is just a Dr Feelgood thing. My thoughts are that if you were peddling the stuff, why wouldn't you get a totally independent lab to do testing instead of replying "Some is good, more is better."?

 

Sorry, not sure who you're replying to-- who said "if some is good, more is better?"

Are you refering to my thoughts on Mobil 1, or Rifle Coaches thoughts on STP additive, or another poster all together?