Feel free to elaborate. And yes, I can see your point of why you think the injectors are undersized and what his explanation about them being a cost savings "It will work" solution. You disagree, that is one item.

So why haven't you had the guts to ask him about what he said and call him a liar? You certainly aren't shy about it. All we have is evasive answers and not anything remotely boolean

I don't know about your programming skills or carpentry abilities. So far, you have impressed me enough with your mastery of words that I would probably hire you to be a PR guy for a politician in hot water.

 

This is complete BS and he refuses to check the math Jon uses as an excuse.
Jon has claimed the 0280-155-700 is a 19 lb injector rated at 2.7 bar or 39.25. but installed at 43.5 it is 22. Both witchhunter and Weiss disagree and pern boy refuse to do the math and goes on about commissions which I have no clue. I help people and he's an argumentative BS spreader.

 

Rubbish. I did check the math. Is it an exact replacement? No. Has it seemed to work with all the MOSTLY, not all, MOSTLY satisfied customers? Oddly enough, yes. Put it another way. I'd certainly use the numbers to get the injector I want but at this time, I don't trust that your recommendation of the vendor is impartial

The commissions question, which you have so indignantly ducked goes to show motive concerning your recommendation of a vendor. So why haven't you had the guts to call him a liar outright? IF there is no proof or logs of what was said, I'd certainly have called him out if someone had insinuated I had been badmouthing them because of a business proposal gone bad. Guess what, someone else also noticed you are rather skittish about answering the question directly although you have no problem giving lengthy explanations of why you think he is wrong.

Accusation made is simple. You wanted 30% which the sales manager couldn't and/or wouldn't approve. Now you are all hot and heavy for another vendor. So far, I see a lot of fancy footwork but a lack of courage to outright call him out on it. Why is that?

 

This may be where you and I differ greatly. I don't want a neutral opinion about something I am considering spending my money on. I want a bias opinion from someone who truly believes such and such product is the very best. My job is to determine if they're right.

In this statement you have expressed the reason I believe what I do. You just look at it differently. To put it simply; I cant trust "A man with no allegiances to anyone", and that's why you would describe such a person as having no allegiances to anyone.

This commission thing is stupid from the position of an objective observer. As a customer you already accept the fact that any vendor is going to make some amount of money from your transaction. How that amount is distributed amongst the counterparties shouldn't be relevant to the decisions that you make as a consumer. In fact I would say getting hung up on that limits your objectivity, and hinders your ability to make the very best decision.

 

More lies, and I haven't ducked anything. This whole commission thing is a smear to avoid the thread topic which is a 22 lb injector that actually flows 20. when a 19 lb injector rated at 39.25 lbs is run through a calculator at 43.5 psi it becomes a 20 lb injector. Jon was made aware 4 years ago and at that time he took it off his website.

I've pointed something out and one only has to compare my posts with these accusers to see who helps and who chastises.

 

Ok, so what's the deal on an actual direct replacement ? No underflowing or overflowing version that almost works right. Is something like that even available ??

 

And if that belief is based on me getting paid to say it is the best, what do you think the recommendation is worth?

Help me out here. My MSD salesman recommends I buy an MSD coil over the ACCEL. ACCEL salesman says MSD is junk and to buy the best, ACCEL. Who to believe? OTOH, a few hundred have had better luck with Pertronix over either. Problem is the few hundred don't have as nice a smile as the 2 salesmen so now what?

I agree Buick and Tag Heuer make a profit on their products. THey pay their salesmen and women to shill their products. Would you buy them on the word of Tiger Woods, a paid endorser? I wouldn't. I might buy them based on the words of someone with no allegiance but why with Tiger's recommendation mean much to either of us?

 

He depends on the ECM to make up for lack of flow. People that use experience lean hesitation as well as lower performance at WOT and it builds more heat. Would you want an underperforming vehicle?

 

No of course not. I also don't want to mess w the tuning at all. I want to install a direct replacement and drive away.

 

Go look at your own carefully worded posts that do everything but tell us OPENLY that what he said was a total lie. Please don't try convince me that you are too polite to call him a liar and that there is 0 truth on it.

Oh, I have seen the vitriol in your posts at every opportunity you get. So much so that I am skeptical of you. Even when he offered you a set to test. See your own replies. Your tone makes me doubt you will give it a fair opportunity. If I was switching to those injectors, you bet I will give Alvin and the other guy a call ask them their opinion and forget yours even if he had given you a set.

 

There in lies the problem. What is a direct replacement? 85's can use 24's but 86 through 88 used a 23.5 lb injector installed at 42 psi and went to a 21 at 47 in 89.
I reprogrammed a 1988 Camaro that was sold 0280-155-771's that jon claims in this thread as a direct replacement from 20.8 to 18 lbs and it was still lean.

Bottomline, you better know what you have and replace with like kind.

 

I totally get what your saying. I really do. I just don't look at it from such a limited view. My opinion of any situation is not necessarily shaped by the sales force and therefore the commission is a non-issue to me. Your making the assumption that there is a relationship between a commission figure and the recommendation of certain products. I don't make that assumption. I may very well find out that's true in any given instant case but I don't make that assumption going in. In my opinion that's a very limited of a way to view things.

The reason a paid endorsers (such as Tiger W) recommendation would mean something is because they could be right about the product. So right that they were willing to form a business relationship supporting it. That should make perfect sense to you even though you may not agree.

 

Ok that makes sense from a practical perspective.

 

You are correct. I assume the worst of people. Yes, I have been wrong in that assumption too, I freely admit. More often than not, I have been right too and as they say, "The race is not always to the swiftest or the strongest but that is the way to bet". Lets face it, most of us do make that assumption which is why they ask judges to recuse themselves if there is any hint of conflict of interests. They don't even want doctors to accept anything from drug companies, even "informational" dinners for a reason.

Yes, they could be supporting the product because it makes sense or they could be supporting the product because they are paid. When I am in doubt, the skeptic in me assumes they are saying what they say because they are paid to say it. Believe me when I tell you that at this point, I'd trust your opinion of the injectors after you tried them out simply because you have no ax to grind over MrWillys who seems, at least to me, to have some ax.

Since I have a HSR and Jon is sending a set of EV14 injectors to Vince at West Bend Dyno, which is 20 miles from me, I am looking to see if Vince and Alvin think this is a viable replacement for mine. Taking injectors off on a HSR is a piece of cake and I want something new to play with instead of the Bosch III I have. Just like my guns which I switch out every so often just to have something different to play with, I might just do this and see what happens.

 

Just a few simple observations on my part. I often read many different threads even if I can't help the OP because there is information to be had or knowledge learned by me. Though I understand the basic operation of a fuel injector, I don't know enough about fuel injectors to argue the merit of one over the other.

1. In this thread Mr. ****** seems to be openly hostile to FIC without the same hostility back at him from FIC. I don't really understand why.
2. The long start problem has not been solved by the installation of the "right" injectors. I suspect his other problems may resurface.
3. I could have sworn when reading this thread the other day that there was a recommendation of a particular set of injectors and vendor by Mr. ******. But yesterday, after FIC got involved, I could no longer find it. So I went this morning and checked for other posts by Mr. ****** and found this thread:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...need-help.html

In that thread, it seems that Mr. ****** has edited or deleted information. Some posts by him tell the OP to "tell Martin this is for a TPI application" and "Therefore, your LT1 programmed at 24 lbs needs the one I posted above." But there is no post with contact information for "Martin" or a post with a particular part no. in it. And a post by the OP has a quote by Mr. ****** that doesn't appear in any of his posts (I guess you can't edit or delete your post if it is contained in someone elses). Here is the quote-
"Originally Posted by MrWillys
$150 a set"
When you hit the "view post" link on that quote it just leads you to the beginning of the thread. So I guess he deleted prior posts and information containing vendor contact information and part nos.

This makes me suspect that he is attempting to hide something. If he is doing nothing more than recommending a particular vendor and part without compensation, I don't believe that is a violation of forum rules. And if that is the case why delete or edit his posts to remove that information?

This makes me very leery of what his end game is. Is it to truly help the members here? Or is to "help" them and help himself at the same time? And since the problems have not been "cured" - why isn't there an acknowledgment by Mr. ****** that maybe his sarcasm and hostility may not have been warranted.

Based upon his posts and my observations, I have already made up my mind.

 

Just to let everyone know. Had the ICM tested. They ran the test three times and it was bad each time. The old ICM works but has the slow start problem. The new ICM works with no problems. Just a weird coincidence that the slow start happened right after the injector change. Sounds like I needed the 24s anyways, either way it seems to run better with them than the originals or the rebuilt 22s. I want to thank everyone for their input, I just wish my post would not have started this argument.

 

Good job I would like to hear how the 22 work if not to much trouble since you have both. You did not start anything ***** did by bad mouthing Jon.

 

Sorry, mailed the 22's back today. I was just happy that the 24s were installed and the car was running good.

 

Ok did the po use the grease right on the icm?

 

There wasn't much on there. I also added some between the heat sink and the head. I will save the old one in case I ever get a no start from the new one.*crossing finger*