On the way to work yesterday, the car did a few things that it hasn’t done before.

1. A couple times, while I was rolling up to a stop sign with the clutch engaged, I heard a short squeal, almost like a belt slipping. Only happened twice for a split second.

2. I noticed that the clutch pedal felt softer than normal, maybe even a little spongy. Don’t know if it just started or if its been that way and I just noticed since I’m hyper focused on the clutch now.

3. Goes into gear fine, but a few times after I put it in gear (2nd and 3rd) and released the clutch, I felt a slight vibration through the shifter.

On a hunch, I checked the clutch fluid and it looks like it may not have ever been changed. The clutch on the car only has 3K miles on it, so I’m hoping it’s something less troublesome to fix. Do these symptoms seem more in line with clutch fluid issues or something more in depth?

 

What brand clutch? I know guys swear by the aftermarket units like Spec and they even argue with me about them.. But I've seen a dozen of them fail in various ways, and they weren't that old.

One thing is for sure - The fluid won't cause it to squeal, but the TO bearing will.

Have you checked transmission fluid?

 

That fluid looks quite old! I would pull some out and place on white cloth to see if it is contaminated I do not trust any one working on my car unless i am standing there watching them.

 

Yes sir. I replaced the transmission fluid about a month ago with Amsoil Synchromesh

 

I would bet it's the throwout bearing. All the new ones people put in are Chinese garbage. I had a bearing from SPEC fail on me. The NOS original bearings were branded INA and made in Germany. They are great, but very hard to find and very expensive if you do.

 

That's two for TO bearing. Looks like I'm about to get an education.

I forgot to mention that I get a bad smell anytime I spin the tires a little bit. Thought it could be the clutch slipping, but most likely the standard Nitto smell.

 

can you give me some details on the bearing SPEC gave you that failed? I imagine it wasnt NOS INA (pretty much unobtanium)

was it the chinese? (Ive seen those, loose, sloppy w/off-axis play)

or was it a unique ‘machined’ bearing that SPEC had made for the kit.

my first SPEC kit (bought in 02), included the real deal INA bearing. The next SPEC kit (bought in 06) included that chinese POS copy of the INA bearing. I didnt use it. I reused the one from the kit I bought in 02.

The last SPEC kit I bought in 2012 had a unique machined bearing that appeared to be high quality made special by a machine shop (ie. Wasnt the stamped one like the OEM, but had tree ring machine marks on it).

i didnt use that one either bc I got very lucky and found an INA blue tag NOS bearing. I made it work by changing out my guide tube to the blue tag model that fits that bearing. Thats how I have been running ever since !

 

I wouldn't fool around with it, btw.. Last one seized so badly it sawed into the clutch fingers and weakened them.

If that's the issue, it's a cheaper fix sooner rather than later.

I have good luck with LUK clutches. The quality is high.

I don't know who makes Valeo now, but I have pulled them out of powerstroke pickups with 250K on them, and because the pilot bearing failed.

 

Every bearing in every kit for ZF6 pull-type clutch is Chinese garbage. So are the pressure plates. Nobody is casting or machining their own anything anymore. The price alone for these things should be all the proof you need to see. If someone actually tried to make their own TOB in the small numbers needed for the C4 market, they would probably cost $500 or more. It's really unfortunate, because the transmissions themselves are still great, and Chinese factories can make good-quality stuff when that is specified and paid for. So it doesn't really have to be this way. But when the market clamors for a $29 TOB, you get garbage.


Unfortunately, Valeo is made in China like all the others now. For every single brand of ZF6 pressure plate on the market (and there are many), there is probably one single casting mold in one factory in China making all of them. Molds are expensive, so you can bet there is only one set anywhere. When these cars were produced, the Valeo PPs were cast and built in the US. All the aftermarket companies like SPEC and Centerforce were using those, no matter what they try to claim. Then they moved to Brazil, and according to the ZF6 gurus those were still good units. But those molds have been lost, and everything now is made in China...and the aftermarket companies are using those. Any old Valeo units you've pulled were still made here or in Brazil, which is why they lasted so long. A new Valeo replacement is Chinese crap, just like all the others.

 

That's truly sad to hear.. Their quality was extremely high.

And to think about how long a clutch would have to remain depressed to wear out the pilot is kind of amazing, especially considering the TO bearing still worked just fine?

This stuff is expensive and it irks people to no end when it isn't right. I completely understand that. One of the China brands that came in here (I think it was a "perfection" clutch) had the hat freeze so hard it actually broke the pedal pivot off the guy's clutch pedal assembly. I know it wasn't that old because I was supposed to do the clutch in that truck, but I was busy and couldn't work it into the schedule and he had to take it somewhere else. About 6 months later he called me with the pedal stuck on the floor (lol!) and he didn't know what the heck happened.

The "lifetime warranty" units fool people too, because that is now more a reflection of how cheap they can make it rather than a reflection of the quality of the clutch assembly.

Some of the cars on this board would probably overpower a stock clutch. For them, I have installed some South Bend units in severe duty applications that seem to work very well. I have installed some really nice McLeod clutches in high performance applications that seem to hold up. Neither are cheap, but going fast isn't cheap..

PS: I think the last Valeo clutch I installed here (Which was some time ago) said South Korea on the disk, (Dunno about the rest of it) and it seemed to be of good quality. I know it hasn't come back and I haven't heard a single word about it.

 

I think disks may be a very different story. AFAIK, there are multiple places making those, and there are meaningful differences in design and quality.

 

That last spec stage 3+ kit i bought (in 2012):
I am running their stage 3+ disk (duh) and their supposedly ‘modified’ version of the pressure plate they get from who knows where (prob china).

Spec claims they make the pressure plate for their kits but at best it ‘appears’ they paint the off shelf clutch pressure plate blue, slap a spec sticker on it and call that their own.

That said i am running this - likely chinese pressure plate - just not the included throwout bearing (which the machined one that came with it appears to be nice quality). Again i mentioned i got lucky i found a NOS INA blue tag throwout bearing.

About the pressure plate:
my machinist did have to machine quite a bit to zero balance it to my aluminum flywheel (and of course you put the flywheel balance weight back on before installing it onto your car since lt1 crank is externally balanced)

he drilled holes in the pressure plate housing to remove mass where needed to zero balance it.

this was in contrast to the 2002 spec stage 2 clutch i bought where he had to machine very little to zero balance it to the aluminum fidanza flywheel.

it seems where a lot of people get burned on spec is when they buy a ‘supposedly’ balanced pressure plate and flywheel assembly. Ive seen lots of complaints about these not being balanced like they say and people getting vibrations/ pulling it back out to fix the problem.

Honestly, i am naturally distrustful so I would never trust a supposedly balanced part -knowing:
1. I have a great machine shop that can ‘check it’
2. I will have to do a lot of work again to remove it if it isnt balanced like they say it is

 

I made some progress today. I changed the clutch fluid and the clutch feel is worlds different. The clutch is much more firm, no more vibration when the clutch is released and I can actually tell a difference between the clutch being engaged and disengaged when I'm sitting still. I couldn't tell before.

Now, what hasn;t gotten better is the random grind/vibration going into 2,3,4. It goes into gear fine, but I get the grind/vibration as soon as it sets in gear. That makes me lean towards the clutch. Looking at the records on the car, a Rhino-Pac clutch was installed 2500 miles ago.

On a side note, in the loads of crap the PO gave me, I have the original Valeo clutch that looks like it was barely used. The PO only replaced it because he dropped the transmission to have the reverse issue fixed and swapped the clutch at the same time, What WASN'T in the box was the original TO bearing. Makes me think the original is still on the car.

 

Man this is unnerving, seems like we are SOL when it comes to clutch replacement. Should I sell now!?

 

Interesting. Unfortunately, I bet they tossed the OE bearing. I can't imagine anyone reusing that and not reusing the PP. I hope I'm wrong. OTOH, keep that pressure plate. If I were you, I'd consider getting it lightly resurfaced and keeping it on the shelf in case you need it in the future. You need a machine shop that understands pressure plates: they have to remove the same amount off the six "pedestals" where it bolts to the flywheel as they do the actual friction surface. And the plate may not need any machine work at all: lots of people assume that friction surfaces are toast because they have some discoloring, but that's not necessarily the case.

No, don't freak out! FWIW, the SPEC pressure plate isn't what failed on me. It was the bearing. If you ever have to replace your clutch, consider having your OE one resurfaced. With the bearing...that's the harder part. You might be able to find one, though. Also, these clutches are pretty durable in a stock car that isn't abused, so don't assume that you'll ever need one in your car. Lastly, if all else fails then you can convert to a push-type clutch with a hydraulic throwout bearing. That allows the use of a more standard clutch and a durable bearing. So keep hope alive!

 

Sounds like either a clutch hydraulic issue or zf trans synchro issue at this point

start by replacing the zf fluid to syncromesh (amsoil or gm).

when i tried this bmw castrol crap that people said was great, i would get grinds on gear shift esp at wot.

If you try the change and that doesnt fix it, look at your hydraulics . Is it oem (particularly the slave) or the cast chinese garbage slave?

 

I replaced the transmission fluid with Amsoil about a month ago and the shifting actually improved.

 

I hate digging up old threads, but I realized I never updated on the final repair. Turns out it was hydraulic related. I did a couple more flushes on the clutch fluid and saw improvements each time. I figure the fluid was so old, It was just a matter of getting all the clutch dust removed etc. Shifting has been flawless and spot-on since last April when the third fluid flush was completed. .

 

awesome news.

thanks for the follow up

 

Do you still have that used Valeo pressure plate?