Notices
C4 Tech/Performance L98 Corvette and LT1 Corvette Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine

84 Corvette Journey

 
Old 06-04-2019, 06:56 PM
  #21  
Gibbles
CF Senior Member
 
Gibbles's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2015
Location: Utah
Posts: 876
Received 75 Likes on 72 Posts
Default

Assuming your engine is identical to mine, a loose quench gasket thickness is .020.
That might be why your getting away with it, unless i read that wrong.
Eta: assuming your deck height is the same as mine

Last edited by Gibbles; 06-04-2019 at 07:08 PM.
Gibbles is online now  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:00 PM
  #22  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Gibbles View Post
Dish volume was something like 4cc if i remember correctly.

I would love to hear how your data logging goes, i have some later c4 vette timing tables that worked out well.
Pretty much i have a table from an 89 vette, and take the sa latency value from the 3006 bin file that comes as an example.
Those two really woke my car up!

And i would love to hear how well it runs, knock sensor stuff too.
Your setup is close to what my engine stroked would be at.

And if you do stroke the engine, those heads will make life easier with the piston choices.
Thanks for the info.
it doesnít appear to have any knock issues at the moment I might take it for a drive with the WinALDL software plugged in before I do the ECM swap so I have a base line. (That will give me a knock count). I thought those pistons were 3.5cc so thatís what I did my compression calculations with.
Thanks again for the tuning info, Iíll post my results once I get the EBL and start tuning.
GregMartin is offline  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:18 PM
  #23  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Gibbles View Post
Assuming your engine is identical to mine, a loose quench gasket thickness is .020.
That might be why your getting away with it, unless i read that wrong.
Eta: assuming your deck height is the same as mine
Yeah I think the thin steel gaskets are .0.02Ē also I didnít put a dial indicator on the deck when I had it apart so I donít know how much height there is at TDC.
Incidentally in go kart racing they measure squish by feeding a piece of solder into the spark plug hole and turning the engine over. The they measure the squashed bit of solder to determine the squish. I could probably to the same.
GregMartin is offline  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:27 PM
  #24  
Gibbles
CF Senior Member
 
Gibbles's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2015
Location: Utah
Posts: 876
Received 75 Likes on 72 Posts
Default

I can't remember my measurement, but i stacked feeler gauges @ tdc until i had it perfectly level with the deck/top of the block, then used that to calculate quench.
On my deck that was original (vin number still on the top of the block), a good quench was something like .018 gasket thickness.
I think a tight gasket thickness was something like .014... it has been a while, but i have my build on grumpys performance garage.
Including my transmission rebuild hell while running a fever... lol!
Good times!

I currently have a .020 felpro stainless shim gasket on there, a little loose/safe.
But that thing responds great.

You might have a very loose quench, meaning there is some more power to pull from the engine via a thinner gasket!

Eta: my original build plans had a copper gasket, it was all wrong and caused a ton of problems due to leakage into my cooling system.

Last edited by Gibbles; 06-04-2019 at 07:29 PM.
Gibbles is online now  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:41 PM
  #25  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Gibbles View Post
I can't remember my measurement, but i stacked feeler gauges @ tdc until i had it perfectly level with the deck/top of the block, then used that to calculate quench.
On my deck that was original (vin number still on the top of the block), a good quench was something like .018 gasket thickness.
I think a tight gasket thickness was something like .014... it has been a while, but i have my build on grumpys performance garage.
Including my transmission rebuild hell while running a fever... lol!
Good times!

I currently have a .020 felpro stainless shim gasket on there, a little loose/safe.
But that thing responds great.

You might have a very loose quench, meaning there is some more power to pull from the engine via a thinner gasket!

Eta: my original build plans had a copper gasket, it was all wrong and caused a ton of problems due to leakage into my cooling system.
Wow I had steel gaskets ready to go and then a very respected Chevy guy over here said to me that I should use copper and that the Fel-Pro 1010 was the go for alloy heads. So thatís what I did.
I canít see any numbers on the photos I took of my deck but I would be surprised if it had been machined, it look 35 years old to me.
Anyway I guess Iíll just suck it and see.

Last edited by GregMartin; 06-04-2019 at 07:43 PM.
GregMartin is offline  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:11 PM
  #26  
Gibbles
CF Senior Member
 
Gibbles's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2015
Location: Utah
Posts: 876
Received 75 Likes on 72 Posts
Default

If it's a felpro, you're probably fine.
What burned me was that i used an sce copper head gasket.
That gasket said it should be used with a grooved head or block for a ss ring.
I was told that was not needed... it was!

If it has been decked, good chance you're ok.
If the quench was off, the engine would feel sluggish, and not respond very quickly.

All the quench is is the space from the top of the piston, to the flat part of the head.
Keeping that tight helps squish and swirl the air into that combustion chamber cast into the head.

Last edited by Gibbles; 06-04-2019 at 09:14 PM.
Gibbles is online now  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:57 PM
  #27  
84 4+3
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Aug 2017
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,808
Received 264 Likes on 214 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Gibbles View Post
If it's a felpro, you're probably fine.
What burned me was that i used an sce copper head gasket.
That gasket said it should be used with a grooved head or block for a ss ring.
I was told that was not needed... it was!

If it has been decked, good chance you're ok.
If the quench was off, the engine would feel sluggish, and not respond very quickly.

All the quench is is the space from the top of the piston, to the flat part of the head.
Keeping that tight helps squish and swirl the air into that combustion chamber cast into the head.
Depending on the dish, some 84s could have had 7cc dish too iirc. As far as the quench, it isn't as critical for swirl as with a more traditional chamber vs vortec styled ones... so running one a little loose wouldn't hurt as much. As far as unmarked untouched deck height... around .02 is pretty normal for a sbc... below .06 for quench is okay. .04 is doing really good for a street application and so on. I actually set the 383 in the truck around .05 and its been fine. Excessive quench sucks yea. You both seem fine as far as setup and thanks for the read. This is awesome.
84 4+3 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
GregMartin (06-17-2019)
Old 06-05-2019, 09:36 AM
  #28  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 84 4+3 View Post
Depending on the dish, some 84s could have had 7cc dish too iirc. As far as the quench, it isn't as critical for swirl as with a more traditional chamber vs vortec styled ones... so running one a little loose wouldn't hurt as much. As far as unmarked untouched deck height... around .02 is pretty normal for a sbc... below .06 for quench is okay. .04 is doing really good for a street application and so on. I actually set the 383 in the truck around .05 and its been fine. Excessive quench sucks yea. You both seem fine as far as setup and thanks for the read. This is awesome.
Yeah my little engine pulls pretty hard. I think that all the 84 L83 engines had the same pistons they are a TWR forged piston stamped 464664 with a trench type of valve relief. They look to be about 4 cubic centimeters in volume and the internet tells me anywhere between 3.5cc and 4.3cc so I guess itís somewhere around there. Iím not worried about compression I think I have plenty. Iím glad you liked the read. Iíve learned a lot since I bought this corvette and I notice that the same questions keep coming up. I reckon Iíve dealt with most of them and others could probably benefit from my learnings. I thing the 4+3 crossfires are very special cars.
GregMartin is offline  
The following users liked this post:
3D-Aircrew (06-05-2019)
Old 06-05-2019, 10:07 AM
  #29  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Gibbles View Post
If it's a felpro, you're probably fine.
What burned me was that i used an sce copper head gasket.
That gasket said it should be used with a grooved head or block for a ss ring.
I was told that was not needed... it was!

If it has been decked, good chance you're ok.
If the quench was off, the engine would feel sluggish, and not respond very quickly.

All the quench is is the space from the top of the piston, to the flat part of the head.
Keeping that tight helps squish and swirl the air into that combustion chamber cast into the head.
Yeah I trust Fel-Pro gaskets and I didnít want the steel ones to put indentations in the heads.
i donít think the engine has been decked (based on looking at it) so quench is probably 0.039Ē gasket thickness plus whatever the piston height is maybe 0.020Ē not sure. Either way the engine feels sharp so I think there is plenty of compression there. I also think the combustion chambers on those heads are a good design, Iím actually very happy with my engine build. Itís good now and I canít wait to tune it. I think 300hp is very conservative, but time will tell. Your build looks pretty good Iím guessing youíre happy with that 2040 cam, it a very popular choice for early C4s.

Last edited by GregMartin; 06-05-2019 at 10:12 AM.
GregMartin is offline  
Old 06-05-2019, 11:34 AM
  #30  
Gibbles
CF Senior Member
 
Gibbles's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2015
Location: Utah
Posts: 876
Received 75 Likes on 72 Posts
Default

I have been very happy with my estreet heads, they are very tough as well.
No warpage even though i had some serious cooling system problems at one time.

The camshaft runs well, and not too hard to tune with, has a nice sounding idle with the exhaust system as well.


If i ever do it again, i want to go a little more wild, but likely that will be with a stroked engine.
Gibbles is online now  
Old 06-05-2019, 05:29 PM
  #31  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Gibbles View Post
I have been very happy with my estreet heads, they are very tough as well.
No warpage even though i had some serious cooling system problems at one time.

The camshaft runs well, and not too hard to tune with, has a nice sounding idle with the exhaust system as well.


If i ever do it again, i want to go a little more wild, but likely that will be with a stroked engine.
Yeah Iím happy with the E Street heads as well. Everything was a perfect fit. I expected that I would need different length pushrods but standard length were spot on with the comp cam roller rockers. I also fingered I would have to muck around with adjusting the push rod guide plates but they were setup correctly so that saved a bit of time.

I think if you have made a good cam choice you always think you could have gone bigger.
GregMartin is offline  
Old 06-05-2019, 07:54 PM
  #32  
84 4+3
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Aug 2017
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,808
Received 264 Likes on 214 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by GregMartin View Post
Yeah Iím happy with the E Street heads as well. Everything was a perfect fit. I expected that I would need different length pushrods but standard length were spot on with the comp cam roller rockers. I also fingered I would have to muck around with adjusting the push rod guide plates but they were setup correctly so that saved a bit of time.

I think if you have made a good cam choice you always think you could have gone bigger.
On cam choice I've always gone to what I want then go one size down in the same family. It's worked well so far.
84 4+3 is offline  
Old 06-05-2019, 09:10 PM
  #33  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 84 4+3 View Post
On cam choice I've always gone to what I want then go one size down in the same family. It's worked well so far.
GregMartin is offline  
Old 06-09-2019, 05:50 AM
  #34  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default EBL Flash II installed

Hi all
I installed the EBL Flash II ECM today. This was easier said than done. Because this car has been RHD converted some things have been relocated. Anyway letís just say it was a challenge.
So on the upside the car started right up after the install. There is a long road of tuning ahead of me now but at least Iíve started.
For anyone interested I started with the TB4 bin file supplied with the EBL. That bin file is for a TBI 305 Camaro with a small diameter distributor. I made some minimal changes to the bin file and the car started and ran. I then swapped out the SA tables with the ones from the 3006 bin file which is for an 88 TPI corvette. Iíve made some other small changes to configure the TCC parameters to handle the 4+3 OD (provided by Rbob over on the thirdgen site) and disabled the IAT (I donít have one).
Tomorrow I will start doing some VE learns and see how I go. If anyone has any tuning parameters they think might be helpful please let me know. I donít have a WB O2 sensor so it will all be with the NB O2 sensor for the time being. The WB will have to wait for the dyno.

Last edited by GregMartin; 06-09-2019 at 06:10 AM.
GregMartin is offline  
The following users liked this post:
84 4+3 (06-09-2019)
Old 06-09-2019, 08:16 AM
  #35  
84 4+3
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Aug 2017
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,808
Received 264 Likes on 214 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by GregMartin View Post
Hi all
I installed the EBL Flash II ECM today. This was easier said than done. Because this car has been RHD converted some things have been relocated. Anyway letís just say it was a challenge.
So on the upside the car started right up after the install. There is a long road of tuning ahead of me now but at least Iíve started.
For anyone interested I started with the TB4 bin file supplied with the EBL. That bin file is for a TBI 305 Camaro with a small diameter distributor. I made some minimal changes to the bin file and the car started and ran. I then swapped out the SA tables with the ones from the 3006 bin file which is for an 88 TPI corvette. Iíve made some other small changes to configure the TCC parameters to handle the 4+3 OD (provided by Rbob over on the thirdgen site) and disabled the IAT (I donít have one).
Tomorrow I will start doing some VE learns and see how I go. If anyone has any tuning parameters they think might be helpful please let me know. I donít have a WB O2 sensor so it will all be with the NB O2 sensor for the time being. The WB will have to wait for the dyno.
For the VE learn and or BLM parameters there is an adjustment to select what RPM ir begins at. If you have your idle set higher than stock I'd reccomend upping those rpms slightly and going in and smoothing out the idle and off idle manually later. I didn't on mine and with the A/C on have a surging idle I can't get rid of....
84 4+3 is offline  
Old 06-09-2019, 09:15 AM
  #36  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 84 4+3 View Post
For the VE learn and or BLM parameters there is an adjustment to select what RPM ir begins at. If you have your idle set higher than stock I'd reccomend upping those rpms slightly and going in and smoothing out the idle and off idle manually later. I didn't on mine and with the A/C on have a surging idle I can't get rid of....
Yeah good advice. I think my idle is a bit low at the moment 550-600. I think 650-700 would be a bit smoother.
GregMartin is offline  
The following users liked this post:
84 4+3 (06-10-2019)
Old 06-10-2019, 12:14 PM
  #37  
Buccaneer
CF Senior Member
 
Buccaneer's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,025
Received 159 Likes on 135 Posts
Default

Hey Greg, you have made a SUCCESSFUL startup! Now, like you said the tuning begins. Set/lock your BLM to 128 and you always start with your VE first which is fuel. Once you get that squared away, then you do the SA (spark). I would highly suggest that you install a WB now since using a NB O2 even street tuning will NOT work properly for you, there is NOT enough resolution in a NB to tune correctly and your will be chasing your tail. Once you install the WB, you can start doing "learns" until you get it pretty close and running fairly well to drive reliably. Once you reach that goal, STOP using "learn mode". The reason is that it will learn the accel side of things as well as the decel side and if you look at the graphs it will be full of spikes and deep valleys. Your motor will/is following those as you drive. At that point, you need a dyno to smooth all that out and tune for drive-ability and power. Once the tuning is done, your motor will be running off of your NB as normal.

Also, I would get with Ben on a few things since he is right there to help you start things out. He is very good at this sort of stuff as you know.

Last edited by Buccaneer; 06-10-2019 at 12:16 PM.
Buccaneer is offline  
Old 06-10-2019, 06:21 PM
  #38  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
Hey Greg, you have made a SUCCESSFUL startup! Now, like you said the tuning begins. Set/lock your BLM to 128 and you always start with your VE first which is fuel. Once you get that squared away, then you do the SA (spark). I would highly suggest that you install a WB now since using a NB O2 even street tuning will NOT work properly for you, there is NOT enough resolution in a NB to tune correctly and your will be chasing your tail. Once you install the WB, you can start doing "learns" until you get it pretty close and running fairly well to drive reliably. Once you reach that goal, STOP using "learn mode". The reason is that it will learn the accel side of things as well as the decel side and if you look at the graphs it will be full of spikes and deep valleys. Your motor will/is following those as you drive. At that point, you need a dyno to smooth all that out and tune for drive-ability and power. Once the tuning is done, your motor will be running off of your NB as normal.

Also, I would get with Ben on a few things since he is right there to help you start things out. He is very good at this sort of stuff as you know.
Thanks for the advice Tom.
I should have purchased a wide band O2 sensor and installed it at the same time but I just didnít think about it. And now I am presented with a bit of a problem. Installing that ECM was a serious PITA. Because the car has been converted to RHD the ECM has been relocated to the center of the dashboard, it is in a void behind the radio (not accessible or visible from there) and in front of the heater ducts. So to get at it; Drivers seat out, carpet under dash panel out, under dash kick panel out, plastic panel on the side of the transmission tunnel out, etc, etc. But even once you find it, it like they rebuilt the car around it. The trouble with RHD conversations is that they donít tend to consider maintenance access and on a Corvette that is generally tight anyway. So to get at the I/O ports Iíd have to do the job over again which I am not that excited about. I did think about connecting up some wires for future use but without knowing the exact circuitry I was worried about introducing open collector type issues. Iíll have a look at the car wiring diagram to see if there is anything I can repurpose for the job. Alternatively is it possible to simply replace the NB for a WB and run in open loop while doing VE learns. Iíll try and contact Ben this week but I think he is pretty busy at the moment.
GregMartin is offline  
Old 06-10-2019, 10:00 PM
  #39  
Buccaneer
CF Senior Member
 
Buccaneer's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,025
Received 159 Likes on 135 Posts
Default

UGH! That sucks for sure. I hope you can sort it all out, it will make your life a lot easier in the long run. I've been there and it does suck to have to redo things just when you thought it was a done deal. Good luck though.
Buccaneer is offline  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:58 AM
  #40  
GregMartin
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
GregMartin's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 145
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
UGH! That sucks for sure. I hope you can sort it all out, it will make your life a lot easier in the long run. I've been there and it does suck to have to redo things just when you thought it was a done deal. Good luck though.
Yeah if I used the language needed to describe the difficulty of the job and the person who thought it was a good idea to relocate the ECM there I would have the moderator deleting my posts.

So in the absence of a WB O2 sensor and because this car is essentially a daily drive I did some VE learns with the NB today. I did about six learns and then I took to the tuner pro 3D plot and smoother out the bumps and flared the out of range areas in the low speed table, restored the original high speed table wor the time being. Amazingly the car is running quite well, certainly better than it was with the standard 1226480 ECM.

The two main problems I have is a really high knock count, but I donít believe itís pinging. It has long pinp headers and roller rockers so maybe they are false knows, anyway something to work on. Secondly the fuel mileage doesnít work on my digital dash, I thought I have all the parameters configured correctly but obviously not.
GregMartin is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: 84 Corvette Journey


Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: