To the people that's only knowledge is forum heroes with big post counts, you get what you deserve. The typical cam and valvetrain budget on engine development is the second biggest cost, behind cylinder heads. Keep buying stuff that is trick-of-the-week parts.
You know that 87 octane fuel is cheaper as well, I bet you could save there

 

Again this is great in the situation of an unlimited budget. But there are literally 100's of cheap off the shelf cams that build very nice power in a street car. It does mean though that people have to do a little math on there own to calculate overlap and actually understand what that means if you're going cheap and not a custom grind. The nice thing with going custom is some "expert" tells you what to slap in it. You don't have to give it much thought.

People get hung up on what guys building race cars do. In a street car it really isn't important to get every last bit of power you can. I would gladly loose 10 hp if it meant I saved $300 in a build. But if you want that 10 hp then spend the money for a custom ground cam.

Guys like Richard Holdener and Matt Happel have dyno'd hundreds of engines with off the shelf cams. There is a tremendous amount of data for us (the home builder) to base decisions off of that will easily make over 400 hp on a budget. I spent $299 for a cam will will get me more then that. And I am very happy with that decision.

 

This sounds like some extremely bad information from an extremely bitter person.
It applies to old school small block and big block engines, where most all OEM parts are garbage, on an exponentially greater scale than it does to LS engines.
Price no longer dictates quality, and there are shelf cams that nearly match almost anything that will be custom specced.
Most of the people charging $500 for a custom spec cam, are pocketing half of that money and then having their favorite cam grinder cut the cam for them.
Summit cams are cheap because they can afford to sell them cheap. They are ground in large batches reducing their cost.
The same exact cam from someone custom speccing it would be 50% higher.

Trick of the week parts work in the LS community. You have very little proof that they never have.

 

Unless the car has a cam thats super far off...a custom cam that may vary a couple degrees here/there over a shelf...youll feel nothing as far as difference goes youll just pay more. If its close...what are they adding or - afew degrees? Taking whats there and making a square type lobe? great...makes a little more torque but loses longevity
So many st cams for most applications its not even funny.
Noones going to grind something simillar thats magic.

 

a budget build should definately have a custom cam. especially when trying to get the most out of a hodge podge of mismatched parts. and then you want it to idle well. be ok in traffic, not buck, surge, and you want it to haul the mail. all the more reason to have a competent professional spec the cam for you. I went as budget as i could on the short block, but spent the money on heads, cam, intake, shaft rockers, good pushrods and lifters. way overkill for a 6000 rpm 383. but i bet in 40.000 miles ill still be driving it without a teardown. that is a sensible aproach to a budget build. i do understand a limited budget, but if it isnt right and doesnt last.. what did you actually save? doing things twice is expensive as hell! having said that, most seem to have no trouble with the sloppy stage 1 and stage 2 cams.

 

that's why i said have a custom cam done by someone that designs, as well as grinds camshafts. most do not do that. Jones is one of the few that does. and literally every post i have ever read with dyno results or track times before and after shows his stuff making more power, and or being less harsh on the rest of the valve train. Im not trying to be a nut hugger here, just do not understand how a guy can invest so much money and time into a project, then be skittish about spending 500 bucks on a cam that will tie it all together. its like making a birthday cake and failing to put frosting, candles, or happy birthday on it. lmao. comp is good too, if you can be 100% certain you are dealing with Billy Godbold and only him when you call. Brian Tooley as well has some decent shelf grinds. guess it just depends on what you really expect out of the car.

 

I think the reason for me anyway that I won't spend the money on a custom cam is because at $250 to $300 for a off the shelf cam that is the highest priced part in the build. If you stick to off the shelf proven parts you can build a 400 to 500 hp NA LS motor for well under $2000. Hell because of me selling the heads and intake that came off of the motor originally I'm making money on building this engine. As in it is not costing me anything. I am making money building it. The goal here is to make power cheap and not buy custom parts. Also a lot of custom grinds are re-grinds. That means custom length push rods. Then I can't re-use the stock ones. With the Summit or Elgin stuff as long as your heads aren't milled then you can use stock stuff.

Now if you are building a race car then this is a completely different conversation. But in a budget street car, off the shelf is usually the way to go.

 

Brian Tooley specs cams using lobes that are in comp's catalog. They aren't custom cams. Open up Comp's lobe catalog. His Turbo Stage 2 cam that everyone swears by is Intake Lobe: 13158, Ex Lobe: 13045.
He follows the same custom spec method that tons of other "custom cam guys" use. Come up with some numbers, call up an actual manufacturer and have them make one of their own cams and slap his name on it.

You're not getting $500 worth of cam. You're overpaying for what you could get better from the manufacturer for a better price.

 

A lot of somewhat interesting comments. For me, the Summit 8707 cam works. Lots of power and a good idle plus 35 mph kickdown burnouts. With the 3.07 stock gear. And a 92mm throttle body. And its quiet, except the exhaust.

 

I'm excited to try it out. I have it in the new motor now on the stand. I still have a lot of other parts to get sorted out before I can drop it in the car though.

 

If you truly are an engineer you know all ICE work on similar principles.
I've tuned a hundred engines without ever having seen them before and this is possible because they all have similar parts and behaviors. Tuning strategy is only mildly affected especially after 02'.

-Ah, but this humble brag seems too good to be true. I claim to be some kind of engine/vehicle master, to give ideal advice, but where is the proof? It's easy to call yourself a tuner, all you need is a laptop.

I asked myself a simple question, "what would be an ultimate challenge, the most impressive thing you can do as a tuner, to put your money where your mouth is? To both teach and show once and for all the true knowledge of a real engine tuner/mechanical master is capable of" Also I had to do it on a college budget, no expensive parts, pump fuel only, fuel economy is a priority and the vehicle will be optimized for economy and 1/4 mile top end performance together.


To me, that means you will approach an engine that you Have never seen before, buy just one of them with high mileage and then drive it for an extra 100,000 miles or so after fully installing and tuning it into a vehicle to which it doesn't originally belong or come equipped for, at 500rwhp+ for roughly ten years 100k.
Thus, an engine swap across platforms (Nissan -> Chevrolet) was ideally suited to the task, as this would require immense wiring and mechanical ability.
Using an OEM high mileage engine- JUST one of them, on plain 93 octane pump fuel, with cast OEM aluminum brittle pistons, was ideal, because one tuning mistake means CRACKED UH OH a chunk flew out, and this can happen for any number of reasons not just tuning related.

I went public with the idea immediately.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...x-details.html
I wanted no confusion on this simple issue: I Have never seen an LS Engine in person before 2017 and I Wanted that to made extremely clear to everyone so they can follow my progress with that ONE single STOCK engine for many years and many miles, leak free, smoke free, completely flawlessly execution within a reasonable time frame for swapping and driving said vehicle.

from my build thread:
"I acquired the car with blown engine around 2-15-17. I had seen my first LS engine in person in a junkyard on 1-23-17.
-the car running, driving and 100 miles on it by 5-23-17
I started Feb and was driving a little by May, just 3 months by myself with no air and no lift, just hand tools working over grass and dirt outside day and night non stop."

Nothing is held back, there are no secrets here. This entire build thread is BASED around the fact that I've never seen an LS engine before. I say it again and again and again because I wanted to emphasize that my success has NOTHING to do with LS experience! The only thing you can do as a master of 'something' is to either know everything about the subject but have NO experience, OR, have a lot of experience but know absolutely nothing about how it works. Therefore if somebody has had 1 or 2 or 50 previous LS engines/vehicles and they put a swap together how would YOU Know as a observer whether it was because they had simply blown up and destroyed enough of those engines in the past? A shop that builds 100 cars and 99 of them fail but the last 1 is at the track consistent everyday, is that better or worse than a shop that builds just ONE car and only one car with one engine and keeps that car driving every single day for 100k miles on top of the 200k they got it with? Which is more impressive? Money can buy you 1000 engines but when you restrict yourself to just ONE engine the whole 500rwhp thing suddenly becomes WAYYY more serious and detailed in effort and effect. I have to be SO very careful with every single mechanical electrical aspect as to not disturb or ruin that ONE single engine with 200k miles already on it at 500rwhp+

Emphasis on: NO lift and NO air tools or electric impacts, all by myself in the dirt and grass I was driving after three months and since then I have put 35,000+ miles on the same stock engine and it has been over 600rwhp (~750bhp) with no issues, no smoke, no leaks. I've had it out of the vehicle ONE time so I could rebuild the 4l80e again by myself, as always with everything I do to my vehicle. All of this is documented extremely well in my sig. The 4l80e is the easiest simplest trans I have ever rebuilt. My first 4l60e (700R4) was in 2004.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ml#post1690906

The LS was ideal because it wasn't just the highest mileage and V8 displacement aspect which is attractive, they are also very affordable. The 5.3L LM7 is basically a freebie as engines go. They are almost never synthetic oil or perfectly maintained so there is some gamble with the inspection and visual details- I share freely what I know this is just ONE of many posts I made across 15 different forums regarding this and similar subjects well received:
ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1872604-engine-buying-tips.html
They loved when I talk about engine cleanliness but hate when I discuss PCV.
Inspection was just Another challenge and again as a true master this should be no difficulty for someone who claims to have inspected around 1000engines between 2004 to 2012 and became keenly aware of the importance of PCV system and OEM paper air filters. Around 2007 I stopped accepting engines from cars without intact PCV and original paper filters because of the debris, leaking and damage I was seeing on engines with those items modified, after hundreds of visual inspections it sunk in. It wasn't until later that I ran simple experiments to determine the necessary crankcase pressure that ICE requires (Wet sump: 0.75" to 2.5" Hg at all times is fine) and the impact of that pressure on all the engine's oil seals including piston rings. With adv mechanics of materials I was able to notice the vertical pressure scalar placed upon the piston ring and how this related to the gap and blow-by, realizing once and for all that negative crankcase pressure isn't just a recommendation is it a necessity if you want an engine to live a long healthy and smoke free, leak free life. Which again I set out to prove, by using the infamous LS1 intake manifold which is notorious for oil PCV related disasters and the OEM truck valley/valve covers which are also notorious for causing oil ingestion, and then taking those both supposedly 'terrible' designs and adding 18psi of boost pressure on top of it to a vehicle that I daily driver and am NOT gentle with. And I haven't seen a drop or sign of oil leaking or spraying or anywhere inside the intake manifold thanks to using the correct air filter and PCV system setup (No secrets: All OEM design just not Chevrolet's design(because they are not turbo), I Used a Supra TT PCV valve and the 2jz-gte/RB/SR/4g style compressor driven PCV for WOT pressure drop)



But I digress. All the info is there you can read anytime.
The main point being in response to JoeNova: It was absolutely my goal to show and share that I had never seen an LS before 2017, that was the whole point of my obtuse regurtion. I was being OPEN and HONEST and CLEAR about my position so that my eventual success, end goal result wouldn't be mistaken for experience related.

And honestly looking back at that thread JoeNova was the first person to give me the basic knowledge of the LS series. He was a mentor to my success just ensuring it that much more deeply. I didn't need any help from the internet but if I had never made that post they would never know it was my first LS engine so I did it just for posterity. And I enjoy a back and forth when it comes to learning new things of course.
He told me about the 7mm socket- it saved me a trip to the junkyard no question there. That is something a man never forgets and it was more than anybody had ever done for me on the internet, ever.
Therefore I owe JoeNova more than anybody on any car forum. And I thought for sure that my responses and pictures of progress would help show that I am not taking my engine swap lightly and that this is a thing I am willing to put my $$$ where my mouth is once and for all. I have been trying to give tuning and car building advice on LS1tech since like 2015 or whatever and everybody always used the excuse "You've never had an LS engine before, how can you possibly give advice??" to shoot anything I said down. I would always respond with "all engines work on similar principles" But that was never taken seriously over the internet because who knew what I was? Finally the opportunity arose to grab an LS and build a whole vehicle around it to SHOW instead of just WORDS I was able to actually utilize my skills and produce an ideal vehicle in form and function, it drives absolutely smooth at 140mph or highway speeds, the front tires have 22k or something like that and still look new, it drives straight I use 1 finger on the steering wheel, it is truly a pleasure to drive and also packs quite a punch and runs on 93 octane fuel OR 87 octane fuel because I have it tuned for BOTH fuels using the same fuel and timing maps. It gets around 22 to 24mpg highway 65mph cruise with the 4l80e at approx 3000lbs which is nothing short of a miracle IMO.

I don't blame him for being upset, jealous, envious? It's easier to agree with a crowd and ban the one scientist than try to change the way hundreds of people have been thinking about engines and PCV in a performance sense. I Understand that my incredible success as a novice must be hard to swallow to some so I hold no grudge. But make no mistake, I built the car I am driving every day for MYSELF not to prove some point. It was just a coincidence that nobody on LS1tech believes it is possible to understand the tuning and mechanical aspects of an engine they have never seen before and I happened to have a camera and willingness to teach and share everything I learned so there it is.

 

My first LS engine as it sits more or less today


Built from many scrapyard parts, $40 of exhaust tube for the turbo, a free used engine. But does it perform well?
Chassis dyno'd it last year to see where I was at, a benchmark if you will


I'd been driving it at about 490rwhp for almost two years at that point. Enough experience, and with these dyno results I could tell the engine would handle more easily with no issue.

Ah the cam issue. Isn't this a cam thread?
The cam I recommended is also known as "sloppy stage 1"
So by telling people to take my advice with a grain of salt is like saying you don't believe in sloppy stage 1 camshafts.

Interesting.

So why is this cam I recommended good?


Answer:
1. it uses a low lift which maximize valvetrain life (preserves guides/springs/lifters/etc)
2. it uses a slow ramp rate which maximize valvetrain life (preserves guides/springs/lifters/etc)
3. It has the correct amount of duration for street/strip vehicles with mostly stock engines (6500~rpm redline is PLENTY for a stock engine on the street)
4. It can support approx 750bhp+ (its up the spring at that point, not the cam)

The big picture here is that you want a small lift, slow ramp camshaft, with enough duration to get the job done, in street cars where the priority is ENGINE LONGEVITY. This will minimize maintenance, and ALSO stave off catastrophic valve-dropping related failures. Also by having slow ramps and low lift the valve CONTROL at high RPM is superior, the engine is again less likely to suffer catastrophic failure when using this type of camshaft.

Et al; Most corvette engines can gain valvetrain longevity and reduce chance of dropping valve type of failures by reducing their lift, reducing ramp rate, and then adding boost pressure to make even more power than before. Control over the atmosphere is a necessary step in becoming a master of ICE as is understanding the fundamental of PCV and Air filtration. Something which engineers should be quite familiar.

 

^^^^ Krusty : u want more than ur wanted hp or same either way give "Chad speier " a holla see what he can do for yah , he's a bad *** head porter & maker , used to work with Darin Morgan.

Hope this helps yah n others

 

I thought they had Cam Motion or BTR grind them on comp cam blanks

 

They won't say either way. But the bar code on the cam and the printing on it looks identical to an Elgin cam. I don't know for sure that's just a rumor.

Either way in my experience all of the mentioned companies make a good product. I've used Elgin cams for a long time with very good success.

 

Summits camshafts are ground by CMC (Cam Machine Corp) in Jackson, Mi.

The guy In charge of Summits engine parts division posted some videos of their cams being ground (on another forum) and the faculty was clearly CMC.

CMC is the largest manufacturer of camshaft cores in the world and supplies cores to 99% of the cam grinders in the country.... Comp, Bullet, Lunati, Jones, EVERYBODY. CMC has been in business since the 1940s. They are also probably the largest production cam grinding faculty in the world.

All your private labeled cams (ie companies that don't actually have a grinder or masters) are just generic lobes CMC has masters for and grinds in batches for those companies.... like the muscle car reproduction or crate engine cams Melling, Speed Pro and Elgin sell as the L82 SBC, LS6 BBC and RAIV Pontiac....

I'm not saying Summit cams are bad because they outsource the mfgr to CMC.... quite the contrary. You get a decent (but generic) product for an inexpensive price. I recently used one of their cams in an LS cathedral port buid, I switched from nitrous to a single 88mm where the customers budget was tight.... it easily made 4 digit power to the wheel thru a TH400 and 9" on surprisingly low boost..... which it'll need to stay on because it also has Summit pistons (Wiseco best I can tell) without the upgraded wrist pins. I had no complaints with anything except the rings which by the tool marks appeared to be carved out of steel by a beaver.... they did fit in the rings thou.... that's a different subject thou.

Just some information on the cams for those that want to know.
Will

 

Pretty much every stock cam core I've pulled out of an engine has been stamped CMC. That includes a factory original ram air IV. Factory original Y block and a few dozen small blocks from the late 60s up until the vortec L31s. I also had a prototype ram air V cam on the shelf with the CMC stamp as well. Like you said... they make quite literally everything.