Ok remember that tranny I busted quite a while ago? 1st gear ripped some teeth off of the gear and then a fluid leak in the replacement unit's OD smoked the clutch packs? Wel my brother goes to New England Institute of Technology in Rhode Island. He has a transmision class this semester and asked me if I would let him rebuild the transmission for the cost of parts as he needed a transmission for his class. So.... I said sure what the hell go for it.

My father has rebuilt far too many richmonds, muncies and borg warners in his day including the one currently in his buddie's blown 454 that was putting 505rwhp down @ 8psi and has since been bumped to 12psi. I told my brother as long as he consluted with my dad before each major decision or if when he had questions to have ball.

He cleaned, disassembled and again cleaned the 4-speed today at school. The damage report was for the most part what we expected. The cluster gear (1st gear countershaft) is trashed and is the most expensive part in the box (yippieeee!! :hurray: ). The 1st gear also has 2 teeth ripped off of it and the 2nd gear synchro was on its last legs. The synchro backed up my theory from before when it started jumping out of 2nd on deceleration. The rest of the parts looked to be in excellent condition after 169k miles. :yesnod:

Soooo parts going back into it are.....

New small parts kit w/brass synchros
New synchro keys (why don't they come in the small parts kit?)
New front bearing
New rear bearing
New 1st gear
New cluster gear
New seals everywhere
New gaskets everywhere

The nice thing is that through the school he gets 45-50% off at Portland Transmissions so at least I'll get a little bit of lube to go along with the parts costs. :D

Once he finishes the 4-speed he'll move on to the overdrive unit. We only expect to find burnt clutch packs in it and I've already got an overdrive rebuild kit waiting here for him when he gets to that point. I gave him David F's tutorial on rebuilding the overdrive and also all of my parts explosions for it. He said he's already gotten a lot of "WTF is that?" when he brought it into class. Nobody had seen one before. Are you surprised? :D

When he's done with both units I'm going to try to hook up with jburnett and see about cryo treating it. I'm sure overall this isn't the cheapest route out I could of taken, but I thought it would be good for him to get a decent box to work with instead of some $50 special at a junkyard that he would never see get used. I've decided to put the 6-speed conversion on hold and use this one when I put the new clutch in so he can actually see the tranny he worked on get the ever living christ kicked out of it.

Only the weak parts break right? :rofl:

 

Interesting Scorp. I am really quite interested to see how that holds up.

I love my 4+3 and don't really want to switch to the 6 speed. The 4 speed just holds that muscle car flavor, you know?

Do you know how much the cryo is gonna cost?

And let us know how it performs when you get it all done and running!

 

:cool:

if his attention to detail is as good as yours, and your dads, it should be just fine!

 

I'll be sure to keep everyone informed. I don't want to mis-quote Jeb if I am wrong, but I think he previously said the charge is $350 for the treatment of an entire transmission plus the cost of shipping each way. I think she'll hold up fine, but we'll find out.

My main concern with going with a 6-speed is the fact that I need more gear out of the hole right now, but if I go with anything more than 3.73 gears and stick with the 4+3 I'm going to be RPM limited in 4th gear on a nitrous pass. I'm not sold on the idea of using overdrive in the 1/4 mile on nitrous.

 

Ok I see ya there....I wish I was able to say I had that problem too.....

But is say a 1500$ rebuild and 350$ (tentative I know) cryo actually more expensive then doing the 6 speed swap??? I must have been browsing the wrong places for prices... :crazy:

I can't wait to see what happens!
(Ohh and if you ever get a PDF of that manual for the tranny....anyway you could forward it on to me :thumbs: )

Good Luck!

 

Sounds like you're going to make the best of a bad situation. I'll be watching to see how it works out, as I'm sure many will. I always thought that this was supposed to be a pretty strong tranny, but I've seen some on the forum who think differently. Follow-up on the cryo-treatment will be interesting too.
Do you know if the gear ratios can be changed readily? I'd like a higher first gear personally; and maby a closer gear spread. Good luck with it!

:chevy

 

There are many many ratio sets available for the T-10, but you have to pick them as a set. The one that came with the 4+3 is called the 'CC' ratio.

<BLOCKQUOTE>code:<HR><PRE>


T-10 FOUR SPEED RATIOS

________________________________________ _____
series 1st 2nd 3rd
________________________________________ _____

CC (GM) 2.88:1 1.91:1 1.33:1
EE (GM) 2.88:1 1.74:1 1.22:1
EE (GM) 2.43:1 1.34:1 1.13:1
OD (GM) 2.23:1 1.23:1 0.94:1
P (AMC) 2.43:1 1:76:1 1:46:1
Q (Ford) 2.64:1 2.10:1 1.60:1
S (AMC/GM/*) 2.43:1 1.61:1 1.23:1
T (AMC) 2.64:1 2:10:1 1.46:1
V (AMC/*) 2.23:1 1.77:1 1.35:1
W (GM/*) 2.64:1 1.75:1 1.33:1
X (aftermarket) 2.64:1 1.61:1 1.23:1
Y (aftermarket) 2.88:1 1.74:1 1.33:1
Z (GM) 3.42:1 2.28:1 1.46:1
U (GM/*) 3.42:1 2.28:1 1.46:1

* = were also available aftermarket

The drive gears vary pretty much by first-gear ratio
but the first on the cluster is the same for all but the last.

"V" series was used '66-'68 with 2:64 and 2:43 1st gear
These were wide ratio trans.

"U" series also had 34 tooth first driven by 18 on the cluster.
Later when GM used it on the assembly line the tooth
count was changed to a stronger 30 driven by 16.

Some T-10's were Super T-10's with alumnium mainbodies

"Z" series were all SIII, but to simplify rebuilding Warner came up
with a set of parts that would work in a

* SII (7/8" cluster shaft) case, this maybe "U"





There are ways to tell T-10's apart for example:

2:23 "V" has 5 grooves cut into the input shaft,
2:43 "P" has 4 grooves cut into the input shaft,
2:64 "T" has 3 grooves cut into the input shaft,
2:64 "W" super T10 has 1 groove cut into the input shaft.
2:43 "S" super T10 also has just 1 groove.

Some cases also have a machined boss on the lower drivers
side toward the front with the date code stamped into them.


</PRE>[/QUOTE]


[Modified by scorp508, 11:55 AM 11/17/2003]

 

I personally think that they are strong also. Hell if they held up to the Callaway Twin Turbo torque then they're good for something. :)

I never understand how trannies are rated for torque. The CC ratio boxes are rated for 300 ft/lb which is far less than what the L98 does in the first place let alone a modified one.

 

DANG!!! Ask and ye shall receive! Once again, thanks Scorp. Your expertise on trannys, I know, is greatly appreciated by us all here on the forum.
:cheers:
:chevy

 

You're very welcome, but I have to admit that my tranny knowledge is very limited. I just fix mine as it breaks and learn as I go. :cheers:

 

:iagree:

Dang...how many times have you broken that thing! :D

 

What a small world this is.........

I teach in the Electronics building. Gotta love parts at half the cost eh??

Kitt


[Modified by kittmaster, 6:48 AM 11/14/2003]

 

Great post Scorp. Keep us informed...luv my 4+3!!

 

Quote:
He said he's already gotten a lot of "WTF is that?" when he brought it into class. Nobody had seen one before. Are you surprised?

So does your bro get extra credit for rebuilding an auto and a manual at the same time?? :lol:


[Modified by loiq, 12:33 AM 11/16/2003]

 

:lol: I don't know!

 

Ok now the real damage report is in. I just talked to my brother and the parts he had to order came to $480 after his discount. :lol: Add on the $64 I already spent on a small parts kit and we're up to $544 just for the 4-speed. :eek: The overdrive kit cost me I think $75 at the time I bought it. $619 so far.......

The countershaft alone cost $431.75, but with his discount was only $229.00. :thumbs: Gotta love a 47% price chop.

 

Hey Scorp,
You stripped 1st coming outta the shoot? Or was it a butter finger job? (Oops)

Where did you get the original parts rebuild kit? i.e. Does the General still sell em? Is there a better parts connection?

Far as I know, the General doesn't sell the OD parts anymore.

 

Believe it or not the gear gave out on the street on my old street tires. I was taking a right out of a CVS and I noticed after I gave it some gas in first it started clunking badly in synch with tire speed. That was with 169k miles on the tranny so it did well. :) I drove it like that for a couple weeks nursing it in 1st and then getting onto the highway one day it ripped another tooth off making 1st for the most part unusable.

The 4-speed stuff is all being purchased through Portland Transmissions in Providence, RI as it is just a super T-10. The overdrive reuild kit I had purchased from a guy on the forum a long time ago and just kept on hand. I think it is the same one Ecklers sells for something like $169. There are very very few pieces available from GM anymore that have anything at all to do with this tranny.

 

Scorp,

Did you ever find that article/manual on the 4+3? (I can't find your other thread. Search on this site really sucks at times.)

 

I recently rebuilt both the T-10 and the overdrive from my 88. I found alot of information and bought parts at http://www.5speeds.com and at skspeed.com. I used a 88 GM service manual and alot of information from the 5speed site. When I bought the car at a salvage yard it had basically the same problem as Scorps. First and the counter gear were both thrashed.