MAF vs SD
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 5
From: San Antonio TX
True!
I agree with you on most things also, but you only have to swap pcm's once (unless you're tuning multiple cars). It works on more than just the VE table and fueling. It works on ANY table/setting that the pcm has. Imagine setting your idle settings (desired air flow, running air flow, throttle cracker/follower, etc) without having to shut the car off and also seeing the changes take place in Real Time! You could change part throttle settings and see if they did any good without stopping and reloading the tune. This would be Very helpful if you changed to a bigger cam too.
Granted, it doesn't take that long to update the tune for the VE table, but all of the other settings that you can do and see if it's helping or hurting without shutting the car off would help a person tune quicker. As you know, there is WAAAAY more to a good tune than WOT fueling. WOT tuning is much easier than driveability tuning, and this would let you see it as it's happening. That's just my take on it! If you're Really good at tuning and know what effect that every change is going to have on the car (which I'm getting there slowly), then this might not be such a good thing, but for me (Newbie) it's Definitely something to think about.
Not trying to start any arguments or get too far off track from the original topic, but just giving my .02.
Sorry Mean Gene 55 for hi-jacking your thread! Now back to our Regularly Scheduled program, already in progress! 
Please Have a Great Day!
I'm pretty sure that it does, but if you're maxing the air flow limit for the MAF, why would you want to keep the MAF? I'll ask some of the EfiLive folks and see how it works! Maybe Tony knows!
I could only figure to help part throttle transitions. Please fill me in, as I'm trying to soak in as much of this as possible!
I agree with you on most things also, but you only have to swap pcm's once (unless you're tuning multiple cars). It works on more than just the VE table and fueling. It works on ANY table/setting that the pcm has. Imagine setting your idle settings (desired air flow, running air flow, throttle cracker/follower, etc) without having to shut the car off and also seeing the changes take place in Real Time! You could change part throttle settings and see if they did any good without stopping and reloading the tune. This would be Very helpful if you changed to a bigger cam too.
Granted, it doesn't take that long to update the tune for the VE table, but all of the other settings that you can do and see if it's helping or hurting without shutting the car off would help a person tune quicker. As you know, there is WAAAAY more to a good tune than WOT fueling. WOT tuning is much easier than driveability tuning, and this would let you see it as it's happening. That's just my take on it! If you're Really good at tuning and know what effect that every change is going to have on the car (which I'm getting there slowly), then this might not be such a good thing, but for me (Newbie) it's Definitely something to think about.
Not trying to start any arguments or get too far off track from the original topic, but just giving my .02.
Sorry Mean Gene 55 for hi-jacking your thread!
Now back to our Regularly Scheduled program, already in progress! Please Have a Great Day!
I'm pretty sure that it does, but if you're maxing the air flow limit for the MAF, why would you want to keep the MAF? I'll ask some of the EfiLive folks and see how it works! Maybe Tony knows!
I could only figure to help part throttle transitions. Please fill me in, as I'm trying to soak in as much of this as possible!
as far as EFIlive using the MAF with the custom 2 or 3 bar os's, they do not support that as far as I can tell.
in reguard to the question of why use the maf if you are maxing it out?
IMO the MAF adds a lot of value to the VCM in that it better adjusts for small day to day variations in the enviroment (IMO this is why GM uses them in the firstplace) and is better for street cars than SD alone. I personaly would like to be able to run MAF for the 90% that it covers with the OS switching to a 2 or 3 bar SD system when the MAF maxes out. I just do not like the current setup that I have that basicly guesses at the airflow after the MAF and The MAP have maxed out. if 1 sensor in a 2 sensor redundant system is out of range that is 1 thing, but when both are out of range at the same time is another.
JMO
More Than Zero
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
From: Alexandria Louisiana
St. Jude Donor '08
What Hijack??!!
JMO - This kind of discussion & info-sharing is EXACTLY what I'm looking for!! 
No hijacking here, IMHO!! 
For myself, I think I'm just gonna use the LPE 100mm MAF for now & save the SD for a later date. I've spoken w/Chris @ ECS a bit & they're also a little iffy regarding the value of SD on a D/D. Don't get me wrong, though. Chris says that SD is quite excellent but most people won't pop for the extra $$ for the intregate tune over a more simple MAF tune.
His example was a 6-8 hour SD on a dyno running $1500 vs a basic $600 MAF tune. For myself, my F1-R is a D/D & on a small bore 383 the MAF will suit my needs. Now if/when I build a Warhawk or LSX w/twins then SD will be my tune of choice!! 
Gene
No hijacking here, IMHO!! For myself, I think I'm just gonna use the LPE 100mm MAF for now & save the SD for a later date. I've spoken w/Chris @ ECS a bit & they're also a little iffy regarding the value of SD on a D/D. Don't get me wrong, though. Chris says that SD is quite excellent but most people won't pop for the extra $$ for the intregate tune over a more simple MAF tune.
His example was a 6-8 hour SD on a dyno running $1500 vs a basic $600 MAF tune. For myself, my F1-R is a D/D & on a small bore 383 the MAF will suit my needs. Now if/when I build a Warhawk or LSX w/twins then SD will be my tune of choice!! Gene
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 2
From: http://www.mphparts.com 800-364-1975
I would agree with you on all of the above , with the exception that your 800rwhp is on a TT system with a blow thru setup reguarding the MAF. When you try to draw thru the 85mm MAF (like the maggies and KB kits) then you will run into a lot more trouble.
when you are running a 1.8 PR (12psi of boost) and you lose 1psi on the intake that equates to 1.8 psi of boost. on your TT you are most likely sensing boost for your wasegate after the MAF, so your system automaticly compensates for a small amount of restriction in the intake and you will most likely never see the loss at your engine. also most of the cent's are making more and more boost as the RPM's increase, which is where the air flow induced loss come into play and will most likely never notice the loss.
More Than Zero
PS does EFIlive let you keep the MAF functional with the 2 bar OS?
when you are running a 1.8 PR (12psi of boost) and you lose 1psi on the intake that equates to 1.8 psi of boost. on your TT you are most likely sensing boost for your wasegate after the MAF, so your system automaticly compensates for a small amount of restriction in the intake and you will most likely never see the loss at your engine. also most of the cent's are making more and more boost as the RPM's increase, which is where the air flow induced loss come into play and will most likely never notice the loss.
More Than Zero
PS does EFIlive let you keep the MAF functional with the 2 bar OS?
COS5 (the custom OS) is a generic custom OS with several different additional functions, including but not limited to multibar MAP. It is also made to work with nitrous/NA cars as well, so the MAF is a must.
Last edited by Tony @ MPH; Dec 13, 2007 at 08:27 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 5
From: San Antonio TX
Yes, EFILive will let you keep the MAF with a 2bar OS. The MAF table is not deleted, rather an additional VE table (the 2bar or 2-3bar part) is added (along with other things). The problem is using the 2bar or 3bar sensor in conjunction with the MAF. I believe this is being worked on.
COS5 (the custom OS) is a generic custom OS with several different additional functions, including but not limited to multibar MAP. It is also made to work with nitrous/NA cars as well, so the MAF is a must.
COS5 (the custom OS) is a generic custom OS with several different additional functions, including but not limited to multibar MAP. It is also made to work with nitrous/NA cars as well, so the MAF is a must.
Thanks for the info and please let me know if this changes.
More Than Zero
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 8,840
Likes: 43
From: State of Confusion.
