I couldn't find an actual write-up. I installed mine 2-3 years ago and did not touch the controller. Now with the TT and dual m15 nozzles the set point of 2-3psi and amount it is spraying is making tuning around there nearly impossible.

Is the dial for initial turn on guess and check? I'd like it to come on around 8psi. I'm also not clear on the ramp rate. It is a 2-bar map. By moving the set point up to 8psi will I be reducing the amount sprayed at 10psi, or did I just move that progressive scale upward?

 

Joe to adjust when the met sprays you need to adjust the dials in the PAC box. The meth turn on point is in the PAC box. The blue dial is pump gain.

I will ask Julio to chime in here and explain it all-he can do it much better than me.

I think with the boost your making it might be a worthwhile upgrade to go to a 2.5 or 3bar map.

FWIW-I'm still running a #10 and #15.

 

I think I read somewhere Julio recommends two #15 nozzles for anything over 800rwhp, but hopefully he can chime in and confirm.

 

There are quite a few things that are wrong here.

Start on basics. The system should be on a single nozzle on lower boost/lower power applications. 10 PSI is not a lot of boost. So my question is why would it need 30 GPH worth of meth at 10 PSI. 15-20 PSI would be another story.

Next is.. Yes.. 30 GPH worth of nozzles at 2 psi turnon will drown the motor out. The motor does not need meth at this high volume at that low of a boost.

So if the motor will make 10 PSI boost. Typically its suggested the meth come on at 3-5 PSI. But on a single nozzle like am M15. Typically a single should cover up 650 RWHP. If you must do a twin, step down the nozzles. Like to twin 10's, or simply change a 15 for a 5. This would be a setup making 700-750 to the tire.

To make the kit come on latter, simply move the turnon to the right clockwise. 3-4 PSI should put the control at the 11:30-12:00 position using a 2 bar MAP.

If the plan is going to 18-20+ PSI.. then that twin 15 will get the job done. Since the car is turbocharged I would probably suggest you step up the MAP to a 2.5 or 3 bar. So it can track past 15 PSI. On a centri blower its not that big a deal as you cant change boost.

My own car makes 900 to the tire, runs twin 15's, turns on at 7 PSI boost, uses a 3 bar for reference,and ramps up from there. I would never activate it at 2-3 PSI.

Hope this helps.

 

That is good info. I think you misunderstood part of it though. I'd like it to come on at 8psi. I will only have 2 boost settings. 17psi and 21psi. I've already tuned up that high, and this volume of meth is getting the job done.

I mainly just need to know how moving the **** to make it come on at 8psi will affect the amount of meth spraying at 10, 12, 15psi compared to now. I hope that is clear.

Also, any estimates on **** position to get it started at 8psi?

This is an 8.8:1 engine. I' have no fear of detonation under 10psi on 93, and it really only sees levels under 17psi during spool. The current settings are causing issues on the hit.

 

Changing the turn on pressure will affect the amount you are spraying on the top end. Set the turn on to ~8 PSI using your air compressor and HPT and make some pulls. I know you already have the gain **** maxed out. If you don't feel like you are spraying enough up top then turn up the initial duty cycle POT next to the turn on pressure POT. Then essentially you can have it set to be spraying what it was at 7 PSI when you had the turn on pressure at 3 PSI, make sense? But you're well above the 2 bar MAP so you're no longer progressing once you hit 14# anyway. I would swap that out for a 3 bar. I thought you had a 3 bar already, or is the PAC working on a 2 bar and the car has a 3 bar? If thats the case then just tie the PAC into the 3 bar MAP signal.

 

That makes sense. The controller is on a 2 bar. The car is 3.

I don't really need it progressing past 15psi. I've got enough for the 950rwhp it made, and I would use c16 if I wanted more.

I guess I need a good guess on settings to make it come on at 8psi and make it scale in as fast as it does now.

 

Its an easy peasy change to hook it up to the three bar. You're basically static flow from 14# to 21#. Noty that you need more flow but it would linearly progress throughout the boost range. Figure you can't dial in less than 15# anyway so you're not getting any progression at all right now, basically on/off.

 

So I am full tilt at 15psi all the way up to 21? Sounds perfect to me!

 

Being its a "turbo" car, I would be on the 3 bar map. Actually if you simply connect the green wire from the controller to the signal wire on the 3 bar and leave the settings alone, it will activate at 8-9 PSI. And ramp up to full boogie by 21 PSI if the gain is turned up.

The neat thing about having a progressive system is in case boost shoots up past your target... there is additional methanol to keep things in line. So at 15 PSI you'd be at 90 psi pressure, at 21 psi you'll be at 130 psi pressure. Tunes out way nicer than 130 PSI pressure at 15 PSI.

If you decide on the 3 bar, every psi is .1 volts. So 8 psi is 1.6 + .8=2.4 volts. The 2 bar is typically setup for 2.7 activation=3-4 psi.

To measure this voltage you measure the solder point on the 12 o'clock position of the turnon control. The 2 bar is approx .15 per psi. So for a 2 bar at 8 psi will be 3.6volts. Leave the gain **** up since the swing will only be 7 psi.

Vs a 3 bar the swing will be 14 psi. And if the boosty goes higher the pump will pump a little higher still.

 

I like the the extra insurance of spraying it full tilt at 17psi just like I do for 21psi. I already have overboost protection via the EB2 which I confirmed does work.

Sounds like a volt meter will get the turn on correct. How do I know what to set the initial duty cycle to so that I see the same volume of meth at 10psi as I do today?

I like how it is dialed in currently. I simply want to make it turn on later and barely adjust my tune. It makes the numbers, does not knock, and it runs great except for tip in.

 

See what happens when you run any system at full tilt all the time its performance will degrade. Whether its a car stereo, racing engine, or even an alcohol injection system. So if the pump can do 150, its better to cruise it at 100.

As to settings vs pressure.. what we need to do is figure out what pressure is being made at 10 PSI boost. Then put voltage to the pump to get to that pressure reading. Since you have a shorter ramp we'll work on that.

I understand your car was tuned the way it was. And your wanting the alcohol system to now do something different. The truthful answer is it was tuned improperly to begin with, and should have been on a 2.5 or 3 bar map system.

I'll do what I can to help you bandaid the situation. And you know it will be way leaner from 2-10 PSI boost. So drivability problems will probably exist after the fact.

 

I'm the tuner here. You cannot really be telling me there is a duty cycle issue with the pump setup this way. What if I ran it at full pressure all the time b/c I always ran high boost? Same load on that pump. I fail to see how this is a bandaid. It is only a bandaid in the way people claim meth injection is a bandaid to running race fuel. People run non-progressive kits all the time. My setup will be progressive, but fully in by 15psi. I don't spend any time at low boost except blips of the throttle that won't be spraying meth. I hardly even need it to be progressive at all, but it helps to get the meth going before spool is complete. I hit the gas, spool VERY fast, and I've got 17psi all the way through. It is not like when I tuned using a centrifugal.

It's not like using a 3-bar is going to give me a smooth and predictable VE table. Honestly, meth injection makes that impossible on this setup, but I love the extra octane and cooling so I can make more power. I tune around it.

 

Here's what I mean. Look at the pressure is the yellow line. This was on my car and the increase solenoid stuck causing the boost to spike. Took out the IC when this happened. The beauty was there was enough volume at tap to save the motor. Would not be the case if I was running the pump at full steam at 15 PSI.

This is why I like running the system with headroom.. for the in-case "stuff" happens it can be there to save the day. This is why you would run a progressive controller.

That being said, many ways to skin a cat.. the question you have is you want the meth system to kick on at 10 PSI and be maxed out at 15 PSI.

Just run the turnon point to 10 PSI, crank the blue **** to 8, and use the initial for pressure output control. It will be progressive and you'll have the system working the way you want it.

Me.. I would do it different. Doesnt mean it cant be done the way you are wanting.

 

I see what you are saying. I've been known to run things on the edge. I'll do some experimenting.

 

Get a guage or transducer so you can record/watch pressure output. That way when you make changes, you can see whats happening. Especially since you like tinkering.

You can simulate using a air source on the map sensor as another option.

Always remember to try and use the least amount of meth you can to acheive your goals. Then a touch increase for that fudge factor

 

I just spray a ton in there and hope for the best. Not even kidding. I know some tuners tune on pump, add a tiny bit of meth, and a little timing.

I run timing conservative like I could possibly do on straight 93, spray a ton of meth, and then compensate for pump failure by pulling enough timing that the car falls on it's face.

I feel my method is safer during all weather conditions when everything works. When the pump fails I should know it pretty quick, see little detonation on 5* total timing, and I will be out of the throttle in a hurry. I have this luxury being the tuner and driver. I will usually bring it into boost and glance at the wideband before any real racing as well.

I observe max IAT's, pull 2-3* if they creep up 20-30* too high. Past that it pulls 10*.

 

I have some questions so I figured I would ask here since it involves some of the same principles.

I've looked at the instructions where it shows what position the turn on **** in the PAC controller should be positioned, and I have it close, possibly a little more to the left than anything else. Does this mean it will come on and spray sooner? I ask because I am getting a little KR in the same area under light throttle and I think it may be attributed to me toying with the turn on **** when I was troubleshooting the MAP sensor problem.

 

IIRC turning the turn on **** CCW would make it come on earlier. Is your PAC keying off of the newly replaced MAP or is it using the MAP that comes with the Alky Control kit?

 

Well the turnon **** sets up a reference voltage whereby it compares the voltage on the green wire input. It controls when the controller activates. So decreasing the Turnon point decreases the boost level the system activates at. Or vice versa, increasing it(CW) increases when the kit activates.

So.. typically you shouldnt need the system to control knock when it activates. And... its setting is based on tuning preference. Typically a good place to be is .33-.4 of your target boost level. So if you run 10 PSI boost, activate at 3-4 PSI? This way you can roll it in. And you shouldnt have any KR with or without alcohol at .3-.4 of target.

If you want to get a little more technical.. if you probe the 12 o'clock position on the Turnon control... and you measure voltage.. that will be the voltage the kit turns on. So lets say its set to 2.70 volts. When the green wire hits 2.71 it activates the kit. A 2bar at 100 KPA=0 psi is approx 2.4 volts. Every PSI is approx .16v. So 2.72 is 2 psi boost. 2.88 is 3 psi, 3.04v is 4 psi, etc.

Hope this helps