Too much timing?
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Instructor
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 218
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Too much timing?
I got my car tuned yesterday by a very highly praised shop in my area.
Car made 717/618 @14 lbs and 20* of timing.
I'm no tuner, but the timing just seemed a bit high and I was curious as to what you guys thougt.
Car has forged internals, runs on 93 pump gas, has a 100% dual meth kit, and is around 9.5 compression if I had to guess.
I know every car is different, but he assured me it's a safe tune and I have nothing to worry about. That 20* is just scaring me though. Anyone else run that much timing?
Car made 717/618 @14 lbs and 20* of timing.
I'm no tuner, but the timing just seemed a bit high and I was curious as to what you guys thougt.
Car has forged internals, runs on 93 pump gas, has a 100% dual meth kit, and is around 9.5 compression if I had to guess.
I know every car is different, but he assured me it's a safe tune and I have nothing to worry about. That 20* is just scaring me though. Anyone else run that much timing?
Popular Reply
Mar 10, 2016, 03:46 PM
Supporting Vendor
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,673
Likes: 369
From: Forney TX
What the motor likes isn't up to the tuner to decide. It's up to him to discover based on feedback from the vehicle, compiling various forms of data to come up with the recipe for that combo.
I've said it many times. The motor likes what it likes.
Bret
I've said it many times. The motor likes what it likes.
Bret
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 23
From: Minnesota
I'm running around 10.9:1, 228/232 112, with 6ish psi. I'm running around 16* with 93 octane. Without a good bottle of octane boost I will get KR recorded.
Oh, I see you're running meth. No, I don't think 20* is too aggressive.
Oh, I see you're running meth. No, I don't think 20* is too aggressive.
Last edited by reactor2; Mar 9, 2016 at 02:32 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,375
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From: Somewhere in the Mid 9's TX
Way more than I'd run on pump+meth. I ran 17* on pump+meth at 800-850rwhp with a 1500. The car never failed and was great, but in hindsight since blowing a few motors over the years I would have scaled it back to 15 or so.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
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From: League City Tx
Was he pulling spark plugs and reading them after making a couple of pulls on the dyno?
Every engine combo is different and will react differently to timing...especially depending on the fuel you are using..
But on 93/meth, no way would I run that much timing on a stock compression engine with 14 psi.... Personally I wouldn't go over 16-17* max... Even if the plugs show good. You get one batch of sub par 93 octane and beat on it and it's done.
He wanted to give you a nice Dyno chart...20* will damn sure do that. I'd take it back pull a couple degrees for piece of mind..
Many people will jump on here and tell you every engine is different and it's probably Ok..
After you've pulled your motor 3 times, you tend to grow conservative.. Lol
Every engine combo is different and will react differently to timing...especially depending on the fuel you are using..
But on 93/meth, no way would I run that much timing on a stock compression engine with 14 psi.... Personally I wouldn't go over 16-17* max... Even if the plugs show good. You get one batch of sub par 93 octane and beat on it and it's done.
He wanted to give you a nice Dyno chart...20* will damn sure do that. I'd take it back pull a couple degrees for piece of mind..
Many people will jump on here and tell you every engine is different and it's probably Ok..
After you've pulled your motor 3 times, you tend to grow conservative.. Lol
Last edited by ajrothm; Mar 9, 2016 at 08:51 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,014
Likes: 48
From: Dayton Ohio
Was he pulling spark plugs and reading them after making a couple of pulls on the dyno?
Every engine combo is different and will react differently to timing...especially depending on the fuel you are using..
But on 93/meth, no way would I run that much timing on a stock compression engine with 14 psi.... Personally I wouldn't go over 16-17* max... Even if the plugs show good. You get one batch of sub par 93 octane and beat on it and it's done.
He wanted to give you a nice Dyno chart...20* will damn sure do that. I'd take it back pull a couple degrees for piece of mind..
Many people will jump on here and tell you every engine is different and it's probably Ok..
After you'll pulled your motor 3 times, you tend to grow conservative.. Lol
Every engine combo is different and will react differently to timing...especially depending on the fuel you are using..
But on 93/meth, no way would I run that much timing on a stock compression engine with 14 psi.... Personally I wouldn't go over 16-17* max... Even if the plugs show good. You get one batch of sub par 93 octane and beat on it and it's done.
He wanted to give you a nice Dyno chart...20* will damn sure do that. I'd take it back pull a couple degrees for piece of mind..
Many people will jump on here and tell you every engine is different and it's probably Ok..
After you'll pulled your motor 3 times, you tend to grow conservative.. Lol
^ Yep I'd pull it back to about 17 as well. That's where I am.
I hope he has it tuned meth defendant and set to pull timing if needed. 20 degrees and if for some reason the meth doesn't work for whatever reason... It could get ugly
Last edited by PEETYZ; Mar 9, 2016 at 07:03 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,724
Likes: 23
From: Minnesota
So here's the next logical question, what good is meth? From what it sounds like it isn't even close to a substitute for high-octane fuel.
On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.
93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).
Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump.
If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.
I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.
93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).
Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump.
If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.
I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 262
Likes: 3
From: Austin TX
So here's the next logical question, what good is meth? From what it sounds like it isn't even close to a substitute for high-octane fuel.
On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.
93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).
Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump.
If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.
I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.
93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).
Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump.
If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.
I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
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I think forged pistons with 9.5 CR with 93 pump/dual nozzle meth is fine at 20* if the person tuning is good at what they do.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
Likes: 1,136
From: League City Tx
So here's the next logical question, what good is meth? From what it sounds like it isn't even close to a substitute for high-octane fuel.
On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.
93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).
Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump. Why? So he can lose 50-60hp?
If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.
I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.
93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).
Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump. Why? So he can lose 50-60hp?
If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.
I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
Meth is not a substitute for good fuel....(race fuel).. , E85 is a closer substitute for that...
Meth is a supplemental safety system that does provide an additional margin of error if something happens. (Bad/weak gas, second fuel pump fails etc).... Lots of us tune using meth as a fuel source and we all know the risk... And you can make good power on 93/meth, but it's nothing like race fuel.
And on the GN, 28 psi in an 8.5-1 compression 231" making 400rwhp is not comparable to 10-1 346" on 14 psi making 700rwhp.
On my turbo bike, I can run 15-16 psi with an air to air IC, on 93 oct, no meth...on stock timing..
Last edited by ajrothm; Mar 9, 2016 at 02:00 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Minnesota
Pro
Joined: Apr 2015
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One of my engines is 9.8:1 static and I run 22 degrees of timing on 93/pure meth at 21psi at 11.8 afr with zero issues. I have 4 years on this combo and the plugs look great. An engine likes what it likes, period.
Time after time I hear the "I wouldn't run that much timing" line. Why? Because you read some place that you should not do that?? If the plugs look good and you are not seeing any detonation it is fine.
Time after time I hear the "I wouldn't run that much timing" line. Why? Because you read some place that you should not do that?? If the plugs look good and you are not seeing any detonation it is fine.
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 205
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From: buffalo center iowa
Just in case you get poor fuel squatch. Been through it more than once. Ive learned my lesson to the tune of about 25k fixing pistons and blocks. I have no doubt I could run 20 on e85 and be fine until that one tank of e70. I can't keep it on the road with 840rwhp, 900 makes no difference
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
Likes: 1,136
From: League City Tx
One of my engines is 9.8:1 static and I run 22 degrees of timing on 93/pure meth at 21psi at 11.8 afr with zero issues. I have 4 years on this combo and the plugs look great. An engine likes what it likes, period.
Time after time I hear the "I wouldn't run that much timing" line. Why? Because you read some place that you should not do that?? If the plugs look good and you are not seeing any detonation it is fine.
Time after time I hear the "I wouldn't run that much timing" line. Why? Because you read some place that you should not do that?? If the plugs look good and you are not seeing any detonation it is fine.
How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?
I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).
Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.
That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.
Pro
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 580
Likes: 44
Sorry about your bad luck, but that is far from my experience and my cars get driven hard. That combo has hundreds of 3-4-5-6 highway pulls and probably 15,000 street miles on it. No track passes, I've never been much for drag racing.
I'm not going to assume why your engine failed or point any fingers, thats not my place. I know what has worked for me though.
I'm not going to assume why your engine failed or point any fingers, thats not my place. I know what has worked for me though.
Years mean nothing..
How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?
I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).
Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.
That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.
How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?
I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).
Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.
That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.
Last edited by SquatchMachining; Mar 9, 2016 at 09:48 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,375
Likes: 97
From: Somewhere in the Mid 9's TX
Years mean nothing..
How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?
I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).
Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.
That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.
How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?
I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).
Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.
That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.