C5 Forced Induction/Nitrous C5 Corvette Turbochargers, Superchargers, Centrifugal, Twin Screw & Roots Blowers, Twin Turbo Kits, Intercoolers, Wet & Dry Nitrous Injection, Meth
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Too much timing?

 
Old 03-09-2016, 01:28 AM
  #1  
416yellowz
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: Oct 2014
Posts: 209
Recieved 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Too much timing?

I got my car tuned yesterday by a very highly praised shop in my area.
Car made 717/618 @14 lbs and 20* of timing.
I'm no tuner, but the timing just seemed a bit high and I was curious as to what you guys thougt.
Car has forged internals, runs on 93 pump gas, has a 100% dual meth kit, and is around 9.5 compression if I had to guess.
I know every car is different, but he assured me it's a safe tune and I have nothing to worry about. That 20* is just scaring me though. Anyone else run that much timing?
416yellowz is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 02:31 AM
  #2  
reactor2
CF Senior Member
 
reactor2's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,714
Likes: 0
Recieved 11 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

I'm running around 10.9:1, 228/232 112, with 6ish psi. I'm running around 16* with 93 octane. Without a good bottle of octane boost I will get KR recorded.

Oh, I see you're running meth. No, I don't think 20* is too aggressive.

Last edited by reactor2; 03-09-2016 at 02:32 AM.
reactor2 is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 06:30 AM
  #3  
winters97gt
CF Senior Member
 
winters97gt's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Mid 9's TX
Posts: 8,260
Recieved 60 Likes on 50 Posts
Default

Way more than I'd run on pump+meth. I ran 17* on pump+meth at 800-850rwhp with a 1500. The car never failed and was great, but in hindsight since blowing a few motors over the years I would have scaled it back to 15 or so.
winters97gt is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 06:49 AM
  #4  
ajrothm
CF Senior Member
 
ajrothm's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2006
Location: League City Tx
Posts: 9,373
Recieved 675 Likes on 519 Posts
Default

Was he pulling spark plugs and reading them after making a couple of pulls on the dyno?

Every engine combo is different and will react differently to timing...especially depending on the fuel you are using..

But on 93/meth, no way would I run that much timing on a stock compression engine with 14 psi.... Personally I wouldn't go over 16-17* max... Even if the plugs show good. You get one batch of sub par 93 octane and beat on it and it's done.

He wanted to give you a nice Dyno chart...20* will damn sure do that. I'd take it back pull a couple degrees for piece of mind..

Many people will jump on here and tell you every engine is different and it's probably Ok..

After you've pulled your motor 3 times, you tend to grow conservative.. Lol

Last edited by ajrothm; 03-09-2016 at 08:51 AM.
ajrothm is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 07:00 AM
  #5  
PEETYZ
CF Senior Member
 
PEETYZ's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 1,995
Recieved 36 Likes on 35 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ajrothm View Post
Was he pulling spark plugs and reading them after making a couple of pulls on the dyno?

Every engine combo is different and will react differently to timing...especially depending on the fuel you are using..

But on 93/meth, no way would I run that much timing on a stock compression engine with 14 psi.... Personally I wouldn't go over 16-17* max... Even if the plugs show good. You get one batch of sub par 93 octane and beat on it and it's done.

He wanted to give you a nice Dyno chart...20* will damn sure do that. I'd take it back pull a couple degrees for piece of mind..

Many people will jump on here and tell you every engine is different and it's probably Ok..

After you'll pulled your motor 3 times, you tend to grow conservative.. Lol

^ Yep I'd pull it back to about 17 as well. That's where I am.

I hope he has it tuned meth defendant and set to pull timing if needed. 20 degrees and if for some reason the meth doesn't work for whatever reason... It could get ugly

Last edited by PEETYZ; 03-09-2016 at 07:03 AM.
PEETYZ is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 09:21 AM
  #6  
5 Liter Eater
CF Senior Member
 
5 Liter Eater's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2002
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 8,471
Recieved 29 Likes on 23 Posts
St. Jude Donor '11
Default

I'd say it's definitely on the high side for pump and meth even with the lowered compression.
5 Liter Eater is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 11:07 AM
  #7  
reactor2
CF Senior Member
 
reactor2's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,714
Likes: 0
Recieved 11 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

So here's the next logical question, what good is meth? From what it sounds like it isn't even close to a substitute for high-octane fuel.

On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.

93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).

Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump.

If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.

I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
reactor2 is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 11:41 AM
  #8  
LTstewy8
CF Senior Member
 
LTstewy8's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Recieved 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by reactor2 View Post
So here's the next logical question, what good is meth? From what it sounds like it isn't even close to a substitute for high-octane fuel.

On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.

93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).

Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump.

If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.

I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
As the resident meth "devil's advocate", even I would say that telling people to ditch it entirely is just poor advice. The answer to your question has been answered already. Long story short, it is "good."
LTstewy8 is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 11:47 AM
  #9  
416yellowz
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Member Since: Oct 2014
Posts: 209
Recieved 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Thanks for all the responses..
He keeps reassuring me that 20* is fine and I have nothing to worry about. I may bring it back and ask him to bring it down some though.
416yellowz is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 01:52 PM
  #10  
[email protected]
Platinum Supporting Vendor
 
Josh@AandASuperchargers's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,799
Recieved 98 Likes on 84 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 416yellowz View Post
Thanks for all the responses..
He keeps reassuring me that 20* is fine and I have nothing to worry about. I may bring it back and ask him to bring it down some though.
If it makes you fell better drop it 2* and enjoy. You probably won't even be able to tell the difference.

I think forged pistons with 9.5 CR with 93 pump/dual nozzle meth is fine at 20* if the person tuning is good at what they do.
__________________
Thanks, Josh Dodson



PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO VISIT OUR NEW WEBSITE AT WWW.AACORVETTE.COM
NOW PARTNERING WITH AFFIRM TO OFFER INTEREST FREE FINANCING!


A&A CORVETTE PERFORMANCE
477 LAMBERT ST Ste A
OXNARD CA 93036
(805) 278-4107

Instagram @aacorvettesuperchargers
Facebook.com/AACorvette

Josh@AandASuperchargers is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 01:55 PM
  #11  
ajrothm
CF Senior Member
 
ajrothm's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2006
Location: League City Tx
Posts: 9,373
Recieved 675 Likes on 519 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by reactor2 View Post
So here's the next logical question, what good is meth? From what it sounds like it isn't even close to a substitute for high-octane fuel.

On my setup, with close to 11:1 and 6-7 psi I was able to run 28* no problem with 100 octane race fuel. Zero KR.

93 octane + dual nozzle meth = ? octane equivalent (of course this depends on how much meth your running).

Detonation is you enemy of course, but if meth doesn't allow you to run a decent advance, then I would say not to waste your time with meth. If 16-17* is all you can do with meth on 14 psi, then scrap that crap and drop your timing to 12* and run straight pump. Why? So he can lose 50-60hp?

If that meth system fails, your motor is garbage. If you can't make big power using meth then run a safe tune, give up the meth, and lose 5% of your WHP.

I have a friend with a GN running pump+meth + 28 psi and 16*. Apparently, the LS1 can't handle real boost.
Your logic is "off"....

Meth is not a substitute for good fuel....(race fuel).. , E85 is a closer substitute for that...

Meth is a supplemental safety system that does provide an additional margin of error if something happens. (Bad/weak gas, second fuel pump fails etc).... Lots of us tune using meth as a fuel source and we all know the risk... And you can make good power on 93/meth, but it's nothing like race fuel.

And on the GN, 28 psi in an 8.5-1 compression 231" making 400rwhp is not comparable to 10-1 346" on 14 psi making 700rwhp.

On my turbo bike, I can run 15-16 psi with an air to air IC, on 93 oct, no meth...on stock timing..

Last edited by ajrothm; 03-09-2016 at 02:00 PM.
ajrothm is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 03:20 PM
  #12  
algZO6
CF Senior Member
 
algZO6's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2004
Location: El Paso TX.
Posts: 2,794
Recieved 83 Likes on 68 Posts
Default

i use to run 21 with on old t-trim. granted that was on ms109 and meth
algZO6 is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 04:21 PM
  #13  
regorih
CF Senior Member
 
regorih's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Location: WTB Kook 2" long tube 4 C5 TEXAS
Posts: 1,865
Recieved 11 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

I made over 800rwhp with a 19 degrees of timing, pump and 100% meth. forged LS1 5.7
regorih is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 06:02 PM
  #14  
juice12
CF Senior Member
 
juice12's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2009
Location: buffalo center iowa
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Recieved 2 Likes on 1 Post
Default

I don't run over 15 with e85..I know what happens with 20 and no meth kaboob, minus 10k from checking account
juice12 is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 07:57 PM
  #15  
reactor2
CF Senior Member
 
reactor2's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,714
Likes: 0
Recieved 11 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ajrothm View Post
And on the GN, 28 psi in an 8.5-1 compression 231" making 400rwhp is not comparable to 10-1 346" on 14 psi making 700rwhp.
That GN is over 600 whp. At least we agree on one thing, they are not comparable. A forged LS can't handle boost but but '87 231 can. 👍
reactor2 is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 08:27 PM
  #16  
SquatchMachining
CF Senior Member
 
SquatchMachining's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Posts: 580
Recieved 43 Likes on 32 Posts
Default

One of my engines is 9.8:1 static and I run 22 degrees of timing on 93/pure meth at 21psi at 11.8 afr with zero issues. I have 4 years on this combo and the plugs look great. An engine likes what it likes, period.

Time after time I hear the "I wouldn't run that much timing" line. Why? Because you read some place that you should not do that?? If the plugs look good and you are not seeing any detonation it is fine.
SquatchMachining is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 08:52 PM
  #17  
juice12
CF Senior Member
 
juice12's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2009
Location: buffalo center iowa
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Recieved 2 Likes on 1 Post
Default

Just in case you get poor fuel squatch. Been through it more than once. Ive learned my lesson to the tune of about 25k fixing pistons and blocks. I have no doubt I could run 20 on e85 and be fine until that one tank of e70. I can't keep it on the road with 840rwhp, 900 makes no difference
juice12 is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 09:27 PM
  #18  
ajrothm
CF Senior Member
 
ajrothm's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2006
Location: League City Tx
Posts: 9,373
Recieved 675 Likes on 519 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SquatchMachining View Post
One of my engines is 9.8:1 static and I run 22 degrees of timing on 93/pure meth at 21psi at 11.8 afr with zero issues. I have 4 years on this combo and the plugs look great. An engine likes what it likes, period.

Time after time I hear the "I wouldn't run that much timing" line. Why? Because you read some place that you should not do that?? If the plugs look good and you are not seeing any detonation it is fine.
Years mean nothing..

How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?

I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).

Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.

That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.
ajrothm is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 09:47 PM
  #19  
SquatchMachining
CF Senior Member
 
SquatchMachining's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Posts: 580
Recieved 43 Likes on 32 Posts
Default

Sorry about your bad luck, but that is far from my experience and my cars get driven hard. That combo has hundreds of 3-4-5-6 highway pulls and probably 15,000 street miles on it. No track passes, I've never been much for drag racing.

I'm not going to assume why your engine failed or point any fingers, thats not my place. I know what has worked for me though.


Originally Posted by ajrothm View Post
Years mean nothing..

How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?

I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).

Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.

That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.

Last edited by SquatchMachining; 03-09-2016 at 09:48 PM.
SquatchMachining is offline  
Old 03-09-2016, 10:02 PM
  #20  
winters97gt
CF Senior Member
 
winters97gt's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Mid 9's TX
Posts: 8,260
Recieved 60 Likes on 50 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ajrothm View Post
Years mean nothing..

How many track passes or highway rolls on that combo?

I just put pistons in my motor 2 months ago from 22 psi and 15* with 93/meth (dual M15s).

Should it have detonated and melted pistons on 15*? No.. Did it? Yes... Do I know why? Not exactly...10 WOT datalogs didn't give me a smoking gun... Was I pulling a fresh #7 plug after a highway pull and inspecting it as I should have been? No.... And it cost me $3k on a motor I had $19k in already and a lot of labor.

That's experience bro... Not reading it on the Internet.
Joe and me just got done texting about all this. Probably going to let him tune my car. How aggressive all of us have been with timing at one point or another and everybody has basically blown multiple motors. He's making 800ish on a 416/YSI combo at 12-13*. A lot less than his TT setup, but it's lasting in Mexico. It's nice to enjoy the car.
winters97gt is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Too much timing?


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: