Well, I took my car down to the drag strip on Thursday and it bit the dust. This time the belt came off, shreaded, and left me stranded 60 miles from home. It tore up the hood liner and broke the underhood light. A call to AAA and $168 got my car home on a flatbed.

My setup had been running perfectly for almost 2000 miles since the last spacer change that Vortech had me do. It is interesting that both times that I have had belt problems, I have been at the drag strip, and have been using drag radials. I am thinking that when I am launching something is moving or flexing that is causing the belt to walk.

I am tired of being a beta tester with the Vortech kit so I am going to be removing it starting this weekend. I am most likely going to be converting to the RMCR/Vortech setup. It is real similar to the setup that jbsblownc5 has. I can use many of the parts that I already have. I'll probably have my head unit upgraded to a SQ T-trim while everything is apart.

Once we figure out the delta between the parts that I have and the parts that I need I'll be selling off the remaining parts of the Vortech kit. I know that I'll have the cogged pullies, some extra belts, and a complete new never used mounting bracket for sale.

It is time to find a combination the really works. The Vortech kit isn't it...

Mark

 

Sorry to hear that... and I know how you feel. It's been over a year since I got into forced induction and I'm still trying to get my setup just right. Getting a new forged motor and swapping over to Andy's kit got my 95% of the way there -- now there's just a few remaining things, like getting the right mix of fuel and reducing belt slip.

I hope your new setup works out for you. Sometimes the best thing is just to start over like you're doing.

 

I thought really hard about getting the A&A setup. In fact I almost bought one.

 

I've been going thru the same thing the last 2 weeks.

Vortech's spacer tech info is backwards.
Switch back to the stock tensioner spacers.
Do NOT use the shorter one up top like they mentioned.

Do use & keep the longer .74" Alternator spacers.
Also, make sure your tensioner has been milled/dremeled enough for clearance per the install manual, p.8 figure 7-f.

Doing the shorter upper tensioner spacer mod totally screws up the smooth 1-shoulder idler alignment on the tensioner.

Give this a try before you throw in the towel.
There is a method to monitoring the belt jumping if I can help via PM.
Not saying this is a 100% solution, but I believe you have the wrong idler tensioner spacer setup. Alternator spacers improve the kit and the tensioner shorter spacer makes it worse.

If you look closely at the 1 shoulder idler on the stock tensioner with the belt on, you can see it's all tilted using the shorter tensioner spacer, but we gave it a try per Vortech. You can change tensioner spacers without removing the SC, just moving the aftercooler.

What brand and length belt are you running at the moment? Stock Tensioner?

Any links to RMCR's info/setup?
We're both working the same issue. Give it 1 more try.

I'll know soon after Hurricane Ivan passes.
I can't beat on the car until the hurricane is past in case I have to move the car. I'll know if it's a good belt setup by Tue.

 

When MTI was having horrible belt walk problems with my car I called Todd Armstrong at Vortech. He got their tech people involved with MTI and got the problem, seemingly, fixed. In fact, Todd, offered to buy back my setup if they couldn't get it right. Vortech underlings like to try to get out of helping by saying their product was not designed for that application while at the same time selling parts knowing that they are being used for those applications.I wish Vortech would get off their collective butts and come up with a product that addresses the guys running big cube higher horsepower cars. They know we are doing it. To me it is the perfect example of a company getting lazy and resting on their laurels while their competition takes away their customers one by one. If I had it to do all over again I would have, reluctantly, purchased the ATI blower from A&A. I really wish that Vortech had tech guys who read these posts and respond. I really think that they would be enlightened. Nobody wants to spend countless hours installing spacers over and over again and destroying hundreds of dollars worth of belts. Not to mention removing the blower over and over again. To me it really seems a no brainer.

 

The spacer instructions are just plain out wrong, including the Vortech engineering memo.

Also, Vortech typically sends out 2 sets of spacers at the same time, both of which should rarely be used together. The vortech instructions and reasoning for use of the spacers is actually backwards from the real world situation. But the spacers are usable and when applied right (ignoring Vortech a bit) can help.

Other notes:
If you have the original Black/Purple Tensioner spacers, I don't know what the length of those are. The correct Tensioner spacers are the larger silver ones. You want 2 of the same size 'larger' ones. Vortech P/N 2A017-102-128 1.277" each. Sometimes these are lamely referred to as 1.3" in notes or the manual.

The short experimental 1.235" upper tensioner spacer is the one you want to avoid.

Overall the belt wrap design and bracketry design is very solid. Great looking kit setup but also very hard to work on since the clearances are so tight.

If I can keep my belt on this week I'll be doing a T-Trim Hybrid upgrade also. I run hard enough that I should experience belt problems quickly. re: Tires I'll be running 13.5" wide slicks.

The problem at Vortech is a communication one. Also they are a little cocky and think they know everything (don't listen enough). They do seem interested in trying to help tho. The lower level tech guys don't seem to truly care and are bad about answering phones and returning calls. The manager in Tech is good if you skip straight to him. They are good and sending out free replacement parts without hassle.

 

Also, 1 thing that will help me.
Any Vortech kit owners, if you are familiar with your entire belt drive setup...

Where did you place the dust cover on your smooth 1-shoulder tensioner idler? On the outside towards the nose of the car or on the inside towards the engine?

TIA!

 

I'm running a T Trim on a 427. Right now it is getting about 8psi in 104 degree heat. Once it cools down I can do another dyno and see. I want about 12 pounds. I'm not looking to win horsepower wars. My car made 611.5 hp at the wheels in 94 dgree heat with about 9.5 to 10 pounds of boost. I would like to see about 630 at the wheels with 12 pounds of boost.

 

Nice. I'm maxing out the S-Trim at 6000rpm with the 28 Cog, so I really should upgrade. Past 6k I am falling fastly off the efficiency map and not making additional power.

My fuel setup and forged motor should allow more. That together with maxing out the S-Trim is prodding me to upgrade to match the right compressor map to my motor flow.

I'm not taking full advantage of my AFR Heads or headers or entire setup without a T-Trim. I don't care about max dyno numbers either. Just matching the correct blower to the motor flow and the max power to available traction.

I think fueling wise we really run into a wall at 650-675rwhp. With my 335 slicks the power should be usable. With 335 streets my car is surprisingly controllable at 580rwhp, so I wouldn't mind a bit more power.

 

I'm running 345/30/19 Pilot Sports on 19x12.5 Kinesis K59 rear wheels with K58's on the front. I don't think I will ever do slicks just because of all the potential damage that could happen to parts. I know the car is fast. By the way, I have a pair of K58 wheels with 335 Pilot Sports mounted available. The wheels and tires have about 150 miles on them. The wheels are 18x12.

 

Sorry to hear about your belt problems. I learned a long time ago that if you plan to mod hard, and drive hard, get AAA plus. You get 4 100 mile tows included.
Another thing I've learned is that wether or not you're at the roadcourse, dragstrip or just ripping it down the street, this is the time that the weak link in you setup will show itself.
Good luck!

JB

 

jak:
Nice setup. I love 335's.
The extra TQ on your 427 gets you moving but also can make traction a little trickier. Oh, I have a subwoofer over the fake spare tire section in the back. I'd guess between the enclosure and the sub it's 150 lbs of weight over the rear tires. Even tho the weight penalty is there I've always found it helps Immensely with traction. Sandbags could do the same trick. Maybe start around 50lbs and move up to 100lbs.

AAA Plus is awesome. Think I just max'd mine out on the 4th tow, lol.
Are there any other Towing plans like AAA out there??

JB: Does anything from your kit/setup experience apply to the standard Vortech kits? If we give up with Vortech, what is the next step towards your setup or the RMCR? Are they the same?

jak: Just confirming, you still have the Vortech on, correct? I know a couple larger cube guys gave up and removed it.

 

Thanks for posting the info about all of the different spacers.

Here is what I have tried:

1) Original setup installed using the black alternator bracket spacers (.695" according to my calipers) and the black tensioner spacers (1.274" according to my calipers). This setup caused the front edge of the belt to wear out and begin to fray but did not ever throw the belt.

2) Put on the new tensioner spacers. The upper one is 1.235" and the lower one is 1.277". This visably corrected the misalignment but the belt ended up getting 1 rib ground off because the belt shifted while drag racing. These spacers are still on the car.

3) Put on new .740" alternator spacers. This appeared to fix all problems until I hit the drag strip and the belt got completly destroyed. The belt wear looked prefect after 2000 miles prior to the failure. These spacers are still on the car.

Plus I still need to change out the supercharger bracket assembly to cure the chirping problem. But there's more...my balancer is pinned with the original 4 small pin method (that has the pins break) so I really need to pull the rack and re-pin the crank.

I am running the stock (5300 mile) tensioner and the Vortech supplied Gates 104.5" belt.

RMCR does not have have a web site. I'll try to get a picture of the setup on one of the cars that they currently working on. It really does look like jbsblownc5. I am guessing that his setup is either PTC or SVI. Here are some pictures of the PTC setup PTC. The RMCR setup looks much like this.

 

I don't think you've tried the 1.277" x2 Tensioner spacers with the .74" Alternator spacers combo yet.

Are you planning to try or just change kits?
Swap would take 2 hours.

 

I don't have 2 1.277" spacers. I only have 1. I do have the original 2.274" black spacers. I currently have the head unit and the aftercooler off.

Do you think that belt problems would show up with the head unit off or is the load of spinning the head unit needed for the belt to come off? I could put my 1.274 spacers on (would .003" matter?) and run it. I'd just need a -4AN plug for the oil feed line and to cap the oil return line.

I have not decided for sure what to do. I am currently pondering the situation.

 

I'm sure a 1.274" will work, definitely better than the smaller 1.235" one.

The most important mod is the .74" Alternator spacers. It's a must, otherwise the belt will ride on the tensioner idler shoulder.

With 2x 1.277" it is almost perfect. A touch close to the edge of the shoulder, but ok. I wouldn't want it even .003" closer to the shoulder. I'm sure Vortech would Overnight or 2nd day you some 1.277".

I'm also using the inside dust cover from the stock GM accessory idler as a shim inside the Vortech smooth tensioner idler.

The key pulley to watch that is causing all of our problems is the tensioner idler and the proper shimming of it. Using the alternator spacers adds .040" more space between the belt and the shoulder. Using the 1.277 instead of the 1.235 will add .042 also. It all adds up.

Adding another .030 shim underneath each tensioner spacer should keep help your belt from riding over the 1-shoulder flange and jumping. This is just over 1/32nd of an inch, but helps quite a bit.

Also I find this setup has the best vertical alignment for this pulley straight up and down, whereas the 1.235" tips it in at the top and really messes things up and throws it at an angle. I think they were aiming at throwing the shoulder at an angle tipping at the top to hold the belt on, but really you want to shim away from that shoulder edge, not throw the shoulder at a sharper angle.

Hope this all makes sense.
Will beat on this setup Mon-Wed and see how it holds up.

 

Another note.

To test the setup you want to try to Force the belt to jump when testing your alignment. You'll find certain ways of rev'ing and certain RPM's will make the belt jump.

When you get used to that you can kind of monitor the belt and try to make it jump. Catching it at say 5000rpms when it starts to jump off an idler. You can see which pulley it is jumping off first. This is almost always the tensioner idler.

There is a lot more tolerance on the other pulleys and idlers in the kit, but the tensioner idler has to be dead on and the Vortech setup is way off on that one which is causing us problems.

Hope I'm right and close to a solution. With my luck I'm wrong, lol. But am feeling much more comfortable troubleshooting that I understand the Vortech setup and nature of the problem now.

P.S.S. The right way to do this is to shim your tensioner idler in steps. Start with a 1.277" or 1.274" tensioner spacer. If it jumps again, thadd more shims .030 at a time. Luckily shimming the tensioner idler is one of the easier pieces to work on. I got my shims from Wilwood if you need the P/N's just ask.

 

You have sold anyone reading your post, on not buying a Vortech blower. I know that if I had read your type of posts before I bought my Vortech, I would never have bought a Vortech blower.

 

Well, again.. Many shouldn't get into FI.

I expected this before buying the kit.
It's pretty standard for all SC setups.

The belt/pulley alignment has to be perfect. Whereas Turbo's have heat problems and clearance issues, etc.. With Centrifugal SC's it's all about the belt.

The ATI kit had many more issues. There are some with the Vortech setup as well.

Finely tuned aftermarket kits by other tuners that have been proven and tested and checked are good examples. Then again JB went thru issues with his early kit, was it PTC or Carrol setup I think...

Overall the stock Vortech kit is superior to the ATI I think.
Aftermarket ATI improvement has better support by far so far. There are less Vortech kits and less people familiar with it than the ATI. The Vortech's aren't as mature but overall are a better design out of the box.

There are reasons I disliked the ATI setup.

jak: How is your kit treating you lately?

 

I learned that the hard way. I had to pay $175 about a month ago to be towed from the track back to the shop. The upgraded AAA card is only an additional $30-50 a year.

The most important thing with anything FI is patience.

Good Luck,

Mark