Forged 347, How Much Boost?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 6,976
Likes: 527
From: Clouds Over California
Originally Posted by king_pin
Stay away from Z Gap Total Seal rings...mine didn't seat at all. Go with the same rings that Road Rebel or OpticZ has recommended in the past. As far as the crank is concerned the only reason to not use the stock crank (providing its still good) is if you are trying to increase the stroke (more tq) which is not really necessary with a TT. As far as the strength of the stock crank. Harlan has ran 170mph low 8 sec 1/4 mile in a TT Fbody...stock ls1 crank. So its kind of easy to figure out that the crank is very well supported. The parts that need the most attention are the Pistons, Valve Springs, and Rods, in that order. I you were to replace just those 3 things in your motor, the motor would be just as prepared to under go the rigors of forced induction as it would if you had a forged crank. But its only money. 
Kevin[/QUOTE]
I would ask him again...because he told me different..but that was awhile ago...maybe he switched over to the Total Seals. I have been told they are awesome if setup correctly. When I used them, they did not seat properly, and after using 2 qts of oil every 400 miles for 2000 miles (oil film all over the back of my car) and no blow by at idle. I decided to have the same shop rebuild my motor with moly rings...and guess what...I have no oil consumption issues or blowby under boost at all. Maybe my shop just didn't set the total seal rings up correctly, but the guy who did the build up had 40 years in the business and some of the fasted "shoe box" Chevy's in the country (but anybody can make a mistake). But I wouldn't buy them again or recommend them after $2000 wasted.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,238
Likes: 0
From: Lakeland, Center of Florida Fl
Doing a built 347, buying a SC A&A or ECS D1 or F1, Fuel setup, and all the other little goodies here and there that it needs. It wil be challenging to get it all for 15k unless you do the work yourself but I am sure it can be done. From my car and others that have done it right the cost is in the low 20's. Dont expect to perform as well as Randys car though cause his motor work alone was 39k.
Not all ATI F1 SC peak out at 4500 some start to peak at 3300-3400
Have fun doing your motor, just dont short cut it. Its easier to spend 20k your first time then spend 15k two times.
Jon
Not all ATI F1 SC peak out at 4500 some start to peak at 3300-3400
Have fun doing your motor, just dont short cut it. Its easier to spend 20k your first time then spend 15k two times.
Jon
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 6,976
Likes: 527
From: Clouds Over California
Originally Posted by INSOMNIAC
I said you won't be able to put down more than 550 RWHP in a 03-Up vette with the new fuel system without upgrading or changing the fuel system. Optic (MDMC), ECS, XTREME and maybe others have gone far beyond 550 RWHP on 03-Up vettes but they have upgraded the whole fuel system.
Basically all you can do is install a Boost-A-Pump on 03-Up vettes and call it a day if you don't want to rip the back of the car off and take fuel tanks off, etc..... Stock fuel system plus a Boos-A-Pump with a blown motor will start leaning out after 550 RWHP. Just not enough fuel pressure. The more air you feed into a motor, the more fuel you need.
I would also like to know more about the Custom Fuel Systems Optic (MDMC), ECS, FLP, XTREME and maybe some others are offering for 03-Up cars.
Basically all you can do is install a Boost-A-Pump on 03-Up vettes and call it a day if you don't want to rip the back of the car off and take fuel tanks off, etc..... Stock fuel system plus a Boos-A-Pump with a blown motor will start leaning out after 550 RWHP. Just not enough fuel pressure. The more air you feed into a motor, the more fuel you need.
I would also like to know more about the Custom Fuel Systems Optic (MDMC), ECS, FLP, XTREME and maybe some others are offering for 03-Up cars.
Optic uses the same system on the 02 after Thanksgiving cars as he does on every car, at least that is what he told me. Maybe I misunderstood him. I think he told me he has 2 cars almost at 700 rwhp on the new style fuel system. When I say newer style fuel system, I am referring to GM cars after Thanksgiving of 2002, not ones that merely have the return location moved off the rail to the fuel filter location. They all have a return, except after 98 they have the return at the fuel filter...so it is like one long fuel rail. You will have to call Optic and see what he can do for you. I told him what I needed and he put together the parts I need to complete a system similar to his..but not identical because I already have upgraded fuel parts. It may be that I will need to purchase the rest of the parts, but I want to give it a shot with my existing parts too.
Pro
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: SAN FRANCISCO CA
Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ
A properly designed TT system for the street is very smooth. I drove Jim Hall's TT and I didn't even want to drive my old TTi afterwards. My old TTi was explosive like a shot of NOS, while Jim's TT came on very smooth and controllable...that is a huge tribute to a well thought out designed TT street system. It looks like it did pretty good in the 1/4 mile too. A pure drag TT system comes on later in the RPM range but continues to pull in upper rpm range..not a desirable feature for a street car. I don't want my above post to be misinterpretted about these modified D1 setups..they are awesome!
The biggest weakest link in the LSx is the pistons. I used the term "Forged Bottom End" loosely, but really I am only referring to the pistons and rods. The stock crank is fine and only needs to be replaced if you are going for more stroke. Even LPE uses a new GM Crank on their forged bottom ends (according to their website). Having forged pistons is going to give you added security in case something goes wrong...like bad gas..extreme temperature change/change in density-boost. Although with HPtuning's new 3 bar software, temperature drops should not effect the tune as the tune will not be subject to using only VE (set amount of fuel at rpms during wot). Forged Pistons are definetly worth every penny, and why your in there do some forged rods. I would recommend using flat tops with the standard -2cc valve reliefs and larger chamber heads, only if you want the flexibility of being able to revert to stock or a H&C setup should you decide to sell your parts or car in the future. If you are certain you are going to keep your car, and FI forever (is there any other way?) than I would go with a dished piston and smaller chamber to lower the CR...but once you take this route,you are stuck with it. In order to get back to stock or a Heads & Cam setup you would have to disassemble the whole rotating assembly and rebuild it with flat top pistons. This is why I like to use flat top forged pistions and larger chambered heads to lower compression...I like the added flexibility and get the same result.
The biggest weakest link in the LSx is the pistons. I used the term "Forged Bottom End" loosely, but really I am only referring to the pistons and rods. The stock crank is fine and only needs to be replaced if you are going for more stroke. Even LPE uses a new GM Crank on their forged bottom ends (according to their website). Having forged pistons is going to give you added security in case something goes wrong...like bad gas..extreme temperature change/change in density-boost. Although with HPtuning's new 3 bar software, temperature drops should not effect the tune as the tune will not be subject to using only VE (set amount of fuel at rpms during wot). Forged Pistons are definetly worth every penny, and why your in there do some forged rods. I would recommend using flat tops with the standard -2cc valve reliefs and larger chamber heads, only if you want the flexibility of being able to revert to stock or a H&C setup should you decide to sell your parts or car in the future. If you are certain you are going to keep your car, and FI forever (is there any other way?) than I would go with a dished piston and smaller chamber to lower the CR...but once you take this route,you are stuck with it. In order to get back to stock or a Heads & Cam setup you would have to disassemble the whole rotating assembly and rebuild it with flat top pistons. This is why I like to use flat top forged pistions and larger chambered heads to lower compression...I like the added flexibility and get the same result.
Are your heads O-ringed? Do you recommend O-ringed heads for 12-14 lbs TT motors? I have heard about water leaking and other problems with O-ringed heads. What is the downside of O-ringing the heads (I think the block is actually O-ringed, not the heads)?
Pro
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: SAN FRANCISCO CA
Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ
I just love your bold
Optic uses the same system on the 02 after Thanksgiving cars as he does on every car, at least that is what he told me. Maybe I misunderstood him. I think he told me he has 2 cars almost at 700 rwhp on the new style fuel system. When I say newer style fuel system, I am referring to GM cars after Thanksgiving of 2002, not ones that merely have the return location moved off the rail to the fuel filter location. They all have a return, except after 98 they have the return at the fuel filter...so it is like one long fuel rail. You will have to call Optic and see what he can do for you. I told him what I needed and he put together the parts I need to complete a system similar to his..but not identical because I already have upgraded fuel parts. It may be that I will need to purchase the rest of the parts, but I want to give it a shot with my existing parts too.
Optic uses the same system on the 02 after Thanksgiving cars as he does on every car, at least that is what he told me. Maybe I misunderstood him. I think he told me he has 2 cars almost at 700 rwhp on the new style fuel system. When I say newer style fuel system, I am referring to GM cars after Thanksgiving of 2002, not ones that merely have the return location moved off the rail to the fuel filter location. They all have a return, except after 98 they have the return at the fuel filter...so it is like one long fuel rail. You will have to call Optic and see what he can do for you. I told him what I needed and he put together the parts I need to complete a system similar to his..but not identical because I already have upgraded fuel parts. It may be that I will need to purchase the rest of the parts, but I want to give it a shot with my existing parts too.
I'm talking about cars manufactured after Thanksgiving of 02 when I refer to the new fuel system so we are on the same page. Well, I should give Optic a call then. Last time I talked to him (this was couple months ago) Optic told me that, they changed the whole fuel system to 02-Earlier and used Racetronix and KB Boost-A-Pump on the 03-Later cars. Maybe he has something new now.
He might be running an inline pump. But for that, he would have to take the tanks out and do bunch of modifications. Anyway, I'll call him.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,941
Likes: 0
From: Stealth So Cal GOCC ...comming to invade your neighborhood soon
Originally Posted by vettethret
My question is, how much boost can you run on a stock cubed forged motor? This is with pump gas on the street. Obviously going forged protects the motor from blowing up but, running a forged motor with lower compression how much more power can you get with the forged?
Stock zo6 motors with A@A kit are usually 550 rwhp
How much more on a forged 347 ls6 motor with correct compression?
Stock zo6 motors with A@A kit are usually 550 rwhp
How much more on a forged 347 ls6 motor with correct compression?
I'd also have to agree with the +$20K figure for fully forged with supporting driveline mods for dependability.
Pro
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: SAN FRANCISCO CA
Originally Posted by xtream1
I'm running a forged 346 motor with D1sc, alky, stock Z06 springs, and stock Z06 valvetrain putting down 730rwhp on 91 octane at 6,000rpm with 600+rwtq.
What kind of fuel system are you using to hit this monster numbers?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 6,976
Likes: 527
From: Clouds Over California
Originally Posted by INSOMNIAC
Shinobi,
Are your heads O-ringed? Do you recommend O-ringed heads for 12-14 lbs TT motors? I have heard about water leaking and other problems with O-ringed heads. What is the downside of O-ringing the heads (I think the block is actually O-ringed, not the heads)?
Are your heads O-ringed? Do you recommend O-ringed heads for 12-14 lbs TT motors? I have heard about water leaking and other problems with O-ringed heads. What is the downside of O-ringing the heads (I think the block is actually O-ringed, not the heads)?
No I don't think any O ringing is necessary for 12-14lbs of boost. It seems the limits on the LSx is 16lbs. If my intentions were to run over 16lbs of boost I would O ring the block with receiver grooves in the heads, just as an added precaution. I think the real problem with the newest generation head (as far as clamping force is concerned) is that it is one bolt short when compared to the previous SBC heads. I think getting the effective CR right is the main thing. If you know you want to run 20+lbs of boost, lower the CR to a level to run that much boost. You have to factor in octane number, intercooling, and alky injection as well. With the amount of power one can get out of a boosted LSx at 8.5-9.3:1 CR..the limitations really become the drivetrain..its almost worthless to have anything 800+rwhp (impressive on the dyno..but worthless on the strip) without a solid axle and automatic tranny.
That is just my opinion. A lot of people say dyno numbers don't impress them, I for one like seeing how much the whole system makes. You don't see NHRA adopting that opinion, the engine dyno is a staple in R&D and is a good measurement tool. The fact that we can see how much power is being made to the wheels, I think is pretty cool.
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Drifting
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,941
Likes: 0
From: Stealth So Cal GOCC ...comming to invade your neighborhood soon
Originally Posted by INSOMNIAC
What kind of fuel system are you using to hit this monster numbers?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 10
From: Macomb MI
Man this thread is all over...
But..I just skimmed it..
My 02
Yes I run total seal rings in mine, Harlans and many others, they have a bizzillion different (even hell-fire)ring sets and types..All top notch and application specific. Which ones we run, certainly not Z-gap on the street or our race motors..I personally ran the child and alberts versions with the same results and Shinobi..nothing to do with C&A, just the incorrect application of the technology. There is a lot more to rings, especially the oil control section and application than most people know. I run 18 psi on the dyno and barely a wisp of oil vapor from the breathers..really awesome..I have a long history with total that goes back to my days at GM.
As for boost..no reason to O-ring an LS1 for 12-14 psi..infact if its on pump gas dont even bother with the potential negatives of O-ringing.
If the heads are 99 and up 18psi is easily held in place with the GM MLS gaskets..On Harlans we run the 6.0L heads with GM MLS and no issue at 26psi and its 8.75:1.
Hope this helps someone..
Phil
But..I just skimmed it..
My 02
Yes I run total seal rings in mine, Harlans and many others, they have a bizzillion different (even hell-fire)ring sets and types..All top notch and application specific. Which ones we run, certainly not Z-gap on the street or our race motors..I personally ran the child and alberts versions with the same results and Shinobi..nothing to do with C&A, just the incorrect application of the technology. There is a lot more to rings, especially the oil control section and application than most people know. I run 18 psi on the dyno and barely a wisp of oil vapor from the breathers..really awesome..I have a long history with total that goes back to my days at GM.
As for boost..no reason to O-ring an LS1 for 12-14 psi..infact if its on pump gas dont even bother with the potential negatives of O-ringing.
If the heads are 99 and up 18psi is easily held in place with the GM MLS gaskets..On Harlans we run the 6.0L heads with GM MLS and no issue at 26psi and its 8.75:1.
Hope this helps someone..
Phil
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 6,976
Likes: 527
From: Clouds Over California
Originally Posted by RoadRebel
Man this thread is all over...
But..I just skimmed it..
My 02
Yes I run total seal rings in mine, Harlans and many others, they have a bizzillion different (even hell-fire)ring sets and types..All top notch and application specific. Which ones we run, certainly not Z-gap on the street or our race motors..I personally ran the child and alberts versions with the same results and Shinobi..nothing to do with C&A, just the incorrect application of the technology. There is a lot more to rings, especially the oil control section and application than most people know. I run 18 psi on the dyno and barely a wisp of oil vapor from the breathers..really awesome..I have a long history with total that goes back to my days at GM.
As for boost..no reason to O-ring an LS1 for 12-14 psi..infact if its on pump gas dont even bother with the potential negatives of O-ringing.
If the heads are 99 and up 18psi is easily held in place with the GM MLS gaskets..On Harlans we run the 6.0L heads with GM MLS and no issue at 26psi and its 8.75:1.
Hope this helps someone..
Phil
But..I just skimmed it..
My 02
Yes I run total seal rings in mine, Harlans and many others, they have a bizzillion different (even hell-fire)ring sets and types..All top notch and application specific. Which ones we run, certainly not Z-gap on the street or our race motors..I personally ran the child and alberts versions with the same results and Shinobi..nothing to do with C&A, just the incorrect application of the technology. There is a lot more to rings, especially the oil control section and application than most people know. I run 18 psi on the dyno and barely a wisp of oil vapor from the breathers..really awesome..I have a long history with total that goes back to my days at GM.
As for boost..no reason to O-ring an LS1 for 12-14 psi..infact if its on pump gas dont even bother with the potential negatives of O-ringing.
If the heads are 99 and up 18psi is easily held in place with the GM MLS gaskets..On Harlans we run the 6.0L heads with GM MLS and no issue at 26psi and its 8.75:1.
Hope this helps someone..
Phil
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,306
Likes: 2
From: Wesley Chapel Fl
Optic is doing a little vaction time..he will chime in with more details when he gets back on Monday. As for the fuel system...most is changed out and stock fuel rails stay. I have aftermarket for looks not performance. I have never had fuel issues. Fuel pressure stays smooth and just climbs as the boost comes on. To date I have made 790 rwhp at 16lbs of boost no alky and had plenty more in reserve. One of these days I am going to bump the boost to say 20lbs to see what she does. I also need to finish the NOS install to see what kind of gain that produces. So for giggles I will run the car at 14lbs of boost and the NOS.
Also I am running 6.0 heads that are 0 ringed and have floated them once. Optic did not 0 ring his heads and floated them a few times. The time I floated mine were under heavy load. I rolled all of 4th, 5th, and most of 6th gear. Hopefully the AFR heads I have will remedy that problem but they will not be 0 ringed.
Also I am running 6.0 heads that are 0 ringed and have floated them once. Optic did not 0 ring his heads and floated them a few times. The time I floated mine were under heavy load. I rolled all of 4th, 5th, and most of 6th gear. Hopefully the AFR heads I have will remedy that problem but they will not be 0 ringed.
Last edited by EatRice; Jan 22, 2005 at 12:18 AM.
