[Z06] Got an allignment done...
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: Riverside Ca
Got an allignment done...
Well I found a Big O tire in my area that was able to get the car on the rack. The car rides alot better than it did beforehand (lowered without an alignment)... but now that I have been reading on this site, It seems that I had a lazy guy doing my alignment. So what I'm trying to determine is if I should go back tomorrow and have him redo it.
FRONT
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0
Right = 0.0
Total = 0.0
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5
Right = -1.1
Toe Left = 0.00
Right = -0.10
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
FRONT
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0
Right = 0.0
Total = 0.0
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5
Right = -1.1
Toe Left = 0.00
Right = -0.10
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,251
Likes: 16
From: Phoenix Arizona
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,094
Likes: 5
From: The 7th layer of hell - Western Washington
Looks like all they did was a front end toe set. They should have given you before and after specs for the car, I'll bet that the front toe is the only one that has changed...
It's a crap job at an alignment that's for sure, either the guy was a complete idiot or just plain didn't care about the job. Take it back and have them set camber, caster and toe to the factory spec - or get your money back and go find a good shop...
It's a crap job at an alignment that's for sure, either the guy was a complete idiot or just plain didn't care about the job. Take it back and have them set camber, caster and toe to the factory spec - or get your money back and go find a good shop...
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: Livermore California
Savior1974--Take it back and have them do it again. The car's fully adjustable and they wasted your time and money by only setting the toe.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,458
Likes: 105
From: Northville Michigan
Two years ago I had my Z06 aligned to the following specifications:
Left Front:.................................Right Front:
Camber: - 0.16 degrees............Camber: - 0.17 degrees
Caster: 7.29 degrees..................Caster: 7.31 degrees
Toe: 0.02 degrees in.................Toe: 0.02 degrees in
............................Cross Camber: 0.01 degrees
............................Cross Caster: - 0.01 degrees
............................Total Toe: 0.04 degrees in
Left Rear:..................................Right Rear:
Camber: -0.21 degrees................Camber: - 0.23 degrees
Toe: 0.02 degrees out.................Toe: 0.01 degrees out
...........................Total Toe: 0.03 degees out
...........................Thrust Angle: 0.00 degrees
Also, you want a slight amount of toe out in the rear, so when you are driving down the road and applying power the rear wheels are pulled to zero toe in. That rear total toe of 0.20 degrees that you have will kill your rear tire wear.
After two years of hard driving, about 6 to 7 track days a season, and many miles of twisty road driving, my Michelin PS2s are wearing evenly and still have lots of tread.
A good alignment makes a great deal of difference. Take you Z back and have him do it right.
Left Front:.................................Right Front:
Camber: - 0.16 degrees............Camber: - 0.17 degrees
Caster: 7.29 degrees..................Caster: 7.31 degrees
Toe: 0.02 degrees in.................Toe: 0.02 degrees in
............................Cross Camber: 0.01 degrees
............................Cross Caster: - 0.01 degrees
............................Total Toe: 0.04 degrees in
Left Rear:..................................Right Rear:
Camber: -0.21 degrees................Camber: - 0.23 degrees
Toe: 0.02 degrees out.................Toe: 0.01 degrees out
...........................Total Toe: 0.03 degees out
...........................Thrust Angle: 0.00 degrees
Also, you want a slight amount of toe out in the rear, so when you are driving down the road and applying power the rear wheels are pulled to zero toe in. That rear total toe of 0.20 degrees that you have will kill your rear tire wear.
After two years of hard driving, about 6 to 7 track days a season, and many miles of twisty road driving, my Michelin PS2s are wearing evenly and still have lots of tread.
A good alignment makes a great deal of difference. Take you Z back and have him do it right.
Well I found a Big O tire in my area that was able to get the car on the rack. The car rides alot better than it did beforehand (lowered without an alignment)... but now that I have been reading on this site, It seems that I had a lazy guy doing my alignment. So what I'm trying to determine is if I should go back tomorrow and have him redo it.
FRONT
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0
Right = 0.0
Total = 0.0
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5
Right = -1.1
Toe Left = 0.00
Right = -0.10
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
FRONT
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0
Right = 0.0
Total = 0.0
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5
Right = -1.1
Toe Left = 0.00
Right = -0.10
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
Last edited by Pumba; May 28, 2008 at 05:09 PM.
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Pro
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 578
Likes: 1
From: Dallas TX
Well I found a Big O tire in my area that was able to get the car on the rack. The car rides alot better than it did beforehand (lowered without an alignment)... but now that I have been reading on this site, It seems that I had a lazy guy doing my alignment. So what I'm trying to determine is if I should go back tomorrow and have him redo it.
FRONT
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0
Right = 0.0
Total = 0.0
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5
Right = -1.1
Toe Left = 0.00
Right = -0.10
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
FRONT
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0
Right = 0.0
Total = 0.0
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5
Right = -1.1
Toe Left = 0.00
Right = -0.10
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
Also, the complete LACK of toe in the front would make it kinda skittish (I think)
TAKE it back, find the factory specs and have them match them to the number, BOTH SIDES!!!
I hate lazy wrench turners....
-Ed
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 2
From: Austin Texas
Erm, I don't know about the comments related to toe, front and rear.
I'd think that neutral toe in front, and just a bit toe in in the back would be optimal. Under power, the rear will squat and bring the wheels back to true. If you toe out the rear, it'll toe out MORE under thrust, and tend to oversteer more.
There's a decent argument for neutral toe in front, since when you brake, it'll toe out slightly, making turns easier. The tradeoff is that under power, it'll understeer a bit, but that's safe for a street car. Track cars... are a different thread.
Max caster == max straight line stability, so that's a no brainer.
And for heaven's sake, take your car back and have them do the job right.
I'd think that neutral toe in front, and just a bit toe in in the back would be optimal. Under power, the rear will squat and bring the wheels back to true. If you toe out the rear, it'll toe out MORE under thrust, and tend to oversteer more.
There's a decent argument for neutral toe in front, since when you brake, it'll toe out slightly, making turns easier. The tradeoff is that under power, it'll understeer a bit, but that's safe for a street car. Track cars... are a different thread.
Max caster == max straight line stability, so that's a no brainer.
And for heaven's sake, take your car back and have them do the job right.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
From: Plantation FL
Huh, People.......please I see some crazy answers here......
I am on my third C5Z06----and only autocross my 04 C5Z06...
HERE IS THE ALIGNMENT SCOOP......
0 toe in the front is fine.....and little toe out (negitive # like -.03 per side is fine and will deal with any corner entry understeer)
That guy that has no negitive camber (-.17)------his car corners like crap--------the car stock spec is like .7 neg front .5 neg rear.......I max my camber front and rear and don't much consider caster as long as the caster is even right to left. (max stock is like about -2.0 front and like -1.2 rear.
In the rear for stability you want like .08 to .12 each side toe in which is a positive number, and will make the car stable and put down power well.
Try to get numbers equal right to left side. Uneven Caster will cause a slight pull---to the lesser side (i think ?)...
Good luck
I am on my third C5Z06----and only autocross my 04 C5Z06...
HERE IS THE ALIGNMENT SCOOP......
0 toe in the front is fine.....and little toe out (negitive # like -.03 per side is fine and will deal with any corner entry understeer)
That guy that has no negitive camber (-.17)------his car corners like crap--------the car stock spec is like .7 neg front .5 neg rear.......I max my camber front and rear and don't much consider caster as long as the caster is even right to left. (max stock is like about -2.0 front and like -1.2 rear.
In the rear for stability you want like .08 to .12 each side toe in which is a positive number, and will make the car stable and put down power well.
Try to get numbers equal right to left side. Uneven Caster will cause a slight pull---to the lesser side (i think ?)...
Good luck
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 33
From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
Well I found a Big O tire in my area that was able to get the car on the rack. The car rides alot better than it did beforehand (lowered without an alignment)... but now that I have been reading on this site, It seems that I had a lazy guy doing my alignment. So what I'm trying to determine is if I should go back tomorrow and have him redo it.
FRONT caster must be EQUAL on both sides
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9 move this out to -1.2* also
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0 1/16" OUT
Right = 0.01/16" OUT
Total = 0.0 doesn't mean squat - toe should be measured in inches not degrees
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5 more is needed -1.0*
Right = -1.1 -1.0* and equal
Toe Left = 0.00 1/16" IN
Right = -0.10 1/16' IN
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
FRONT caster must be EQUAL on both sides
Caster Left = 7.1
Right = 7.7
Camber Left = -0.9 move this out to -1.2* also
Right = -1.2
Toe Left = 0.0 1/16" OUT
Right = 0.01/16" OUT
Total = 0.0 doesn't mean squat - toe should be measured in inches not degrees
REAR
Camber Left = -0.5 more is needed -1.0*
Right = -1.1 -1.0* and equal
Toe Left = 0.00 1/16" IN
Right = -0.10 1/16' IN
Total = -0.10
Thrust Angle = 0.1
What do you guys think...
Good Luck
Last edited by AU N EGL; May 29, 2008 at 07:25 AM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: Riverside Ca
OK, taking my car in today. I have the camber and caster settings that I want. I will be having them set the caster to 7.1 on both sides, and front camber will be -1.2 across, rear will be -1.0 across. But what do I do with the toe. I see that I want 1/16" out in the front and 1/16' in in the rear, but how do I tell them that if the machine they use can only do (.) numbers instead of the (/) numbers... Sorry I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this sort of thing.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,094
Likes: 5
From: The 7th layer of hell - Western Washington
OK, taking my car in today. I have the camber and caster settings that I want. I will be having them set the caster to 7.1 on both sides, and front camber will be -1.2 across, rear will be -1.0 across. But what do I do with the toe. I see that I want 1/16" out in the front and 1/16' in in the rear, but how do I tell them that if the machine they use can only do (.) numbers instead of the (/) numbers... Sorry I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this sort of thing.
Also in my experience toe in will give you more stability at speed but make the car not turn is quickly and nimbly - toe out can make the car darty and wander at speed, but will make it very responsive when going into a corner... I prefer toe in myself for a car that's going to see street duty...
Also if they'll let ya, sit in the car while they set it up - you'll be amazed at how much a 180lb person in the drivers seat will change alignment specs...
Pro
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 534
Likes: 0
From: Ann Arbor MI
AU N EGL
I would think you'd want a bit of front toe IN. Entering a corner, the OUSIDE tire is more heavily loaded, and being toed out steering OUT of the turn, you'd actually increase your understeer gradient at turn in. Plus, under forward longitudinal load, toe out would just get worse.
Also, can you explain why you say degrees are meaningless for measuring toe? Hunter and other commercial alignment systems measure in degrees. You have to do some math and careful measurement to figure it our on your typical DIY set-up, but the measurement is just as valid.
I agree with wanting a bit of toe IN in the rear. Rear toe OUT will reduce understeer, but can also makes the steering non-linear and unpredictable. There maybe some conditions or set-ups where you'd need static toe out, but I doubt the OP does.
I would think you'd want a bit of front toe IN. Entering a corner, the OUSIDE tire is more heavily loaded, and being toed out steering OUT of the turn, you'd actually increase your understeer gradient at turn in. Plus, under forward longitudinal load, toe out would just get worse.
Also, can you explain why you say degrees are meaningless for measuring toe? Hunter and other commercial alignment systems measure in degrees. You have to do some math and careful measurement to figure it our on your typical DIY set-up, but the measurement is just as valid.
I agree with wanting a bit of toe IN in the rear. Rear toe OUT will reduce understeer, but can also makes the steering non-linear and unpredictable. There maybe some conditions or set-ups where you'd need static toe out, but I doubt the OP does.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,071
Likes: 0
From: Goose Creek SC
AU N EGL
I would think you'd want a bit of front toe IN. Entering a corner, the OUSIDE tire is more heavily loaded, and being toed out steering OUT of the turn, you'd actually increase your understeer gradient at turn in. Plus, under forward longitudinal load, toe out would just get worse.
I would think you'd want a bit of front toe IN. Entering a corner, the OUSIDE tire is more heavily loaded, and being toed out steering OUT of the turn, you'd actually increase your understeer gradient at turn in. Plus, under forward longitudinal load, toe out would just get worse.
Here is one of the best explanations why... http://www.davidfarmerstuff.com/Toe-Ackerman.pdf
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 33
From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
"AU N EGL" is correct....
Here is one of the best explanations why... http://www.davidfarmerstuff.com/Toe-Ackerman.pdf
Here is one of the best explanations why... http://www.davidfarmerstuff.com/Toe-Ackerman.pdf
Hunter alignment machines are more off then ppl think. 2 psi difference in tire pressure change your alignemt, Not having your body wt in the drivers seat during the alignment changes the alignment too.
( Make sure the tires are at OPPORTAING temp, not 32 psi cold temp, and YOU ARE SITTING IN THE DRIVERS SEAT ( or an equivent wt) when the alignment is done.
Great alignments are more to do with the tech then any machine. If the tech can not make those calculations from degrees to Inches, find a different tech.
Why do we say INCHES and Not DEGREES? Most measurements are toe done in inches and camber measurements are done in degrees. This makes it very easy to separate the two out.
Plus anyone worth their alignment skill can do an alignment by hand, with string, two tape measures, toe plates,Smart Camber device, paper, pen and calculator.