Well, in all fairness,

I must confess, I just went to Breathless' page and saw similar ridiculous numbers. I guess people just buy whatever the best numbers are, so the aftermarket guys just make crap up.

I got a kick out of one particular quote on their page, "VORTEX POWER AIR DUCT... It increases the air flow to the motor by over thirty three percent"

A supercharger will increase airflow that much, but a fatter plastic tube ain't gonna do it unless the original was UNBELIEVABLY restrictive.

I like the guy who just pulled the top off the air cleaner box and tie-wrapped a K&N filter in place. Looked good to me...

 

Hey Brett -

While this may apply to your car, please do not infer that the Vortex has never had a water injestion problem. There are a few Florida people who would beg to differ.

 

Halltech stuff is top-quality great stuff! I still think the TRIC is the best piece out there.

I do not like the quality of the Vortec piece--or anything else about it. Just one opinion.

I run the Blackwing, with a Halltech airbridge, throttle body coolant bypass, and ported throttle body. The only reasons I no longer run the TRIC are that it needs cleaning more often, is hard to reach and has a chance of water injestion if you drive is puddles.

All of the aftermarket intakes are good improvements over stock.

Good luck!

 

So, I notice there is a big difference between the Halltech T1 and the Vortex which I would like to get more detail on.

The old Halltech TRIC used to go under the shroud and have the filter under the car drawing cold air. The current Halltech does not -- it draws cold air from inside the compartment thanks to the Z06 air screens -- so I don't see a difference between that and the Blackwing, honestly.

The Vortex doesn't take any air from inside the cabin -- it only takes air from underneath the car -- like the old Halltech TRIC.

So, here's the Million Dollar question -- which is the better way to go? Taking air directly from under the car and foregoing the screens, or taking air from under the hood but taking advantage of the screens?

I guess now I just don't see the advantage to either. Sounds like the cutting a hole in the top of the Vortex box and taking advantage of both would be the best of both worlds...

 

:cheers: :D

 

Balckwing. Cut a hole in the shroud and make a box. Save around $300 from the Halltech over priced crap.

 

:lol: I was lucky to sell my Halltech T-1 with the "New Race Filter" Carbon Fiber air duct for just enough to pay for my Vortex Rammer. :)

 

Best overall, engine protection, ease of maintenance, warranty supported, every-day-Joe intake... is the stock intake parts with frequent filter replacements. Like most aftermarket parts, the trade-offs just don't justify the puny performance gains and expence.

The aftermarket air-cleaner business (the stock system is already CAI, so they cannot claim that as a unique attribute), exists because people will shell out $400 to $600 to feel like they are making an easy gain, even if that gain is statistically insignificant. This applies to intakes, brake pads, waxes and polishes, some suspension gadgets, and bolt-on exhaust mods. It's a marketing thing. Price the product in certain price categories (in this case $400 to $700) and the actual delivery-to-promise formula is pretty soft. Once you get past this into the "real money" category, like $5,500+ for a blower, the performance gains must be real, and significant. In the case of the airfilter doo-daddery, you get what you pay for.... not much - no matter who's logo is stuck to it.

Take the $400 and participate in a HPDE, it's a better use of the cash and is transferred to every car you will every own or drive from that moment on, for the rest of your life! Want to spend more? Go for a pro driver school! :cheers:

 

Man I wish I had talked to you first before I wasted all my hard earned cash on "puny" performance gains like I did. I assume that you feel this way about only those mods others go with, since you fail to mention any of your mods in this same light. Also I assume 15 RWHP from most of the aftermarket air intake systems falls in your "statistically insignificant" category. You should have let GM know that so they would not have gone to the trouble of increasing the 02 HP to 405 vs the 01 385 HP because from your perspective obviously that must have been insignificant as well.

I wish you lived around here so we could go to the track and compare my insignificant mods against your lowered car with a shifter and see who is smiling when the lights go up!

If this sounds a bit sarcastic - good :)

Where I would agree is that for the average driver who possibly never or rarely races, doesn't care if his bone stock Z06 can be matched (assuming driver variance is minimal) by every other bone stock Z06 out there, but loves how fast it is just the way it came from the factory. I think this fits many of this Forum's members and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!

I would also agree that race school or a lot of seat time is a must to squeeze performance out of any machine and is money and time well spent.

Les

 

I have a donaldson blackwing but have never heard of a cold air cover. What is it?

 

Some guys are making a lexan box to go over the BW. This with a hole cut in the shroud makes for a true ram air system. This also keeps any of the hot engine compartment air from mixing with the intake air.

The box will also eliminate any surging problems had with the BW.

 

BLU-BY-U,

Interesting concept. Quick question on the fit and seal. I notice that there are four contact points where the straps press the filter against the tray. Have you had any air leakage around the filter that may cause uneven air flow to the MAF?

Thanks for trying something new,
John

 

Donaldson ... :smash:

 

John, a couple of days after trying the mod, I took the stock "retaining" bracket and cut the center post out (see bracket on right):



I placed it over the k&n and tied it down as tight as possible with some additional wraps. I don't really see any greater chance of leaks/debris entering than any other setup. The filter sits very snug against the supplied k&n gasket.

I've had it on for about 1000 miles now and have tripped no codes on the computer. I've been through complete downpours and have had no problems (you do need a hood seal, however).

just call me mr cheapo, but even though the stock box is an obvious restriction point, I couldn't bring myself to shell out $400 on an intake.

I saved that money and bought some BFG drag radials and rims.... :cheers:

 

I had the Blackwing on the old car and bought one for the new one as well, but then bought the Vararam. I really dig the blakwing, but wanted to switch things up.

What can I say, as with any board, alot of the opinions on this board are totally biased and unbacked. People are prone to like what they own. And when I saw the Powershifter got real gains with the Vararam I decided that if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me. :yesnod: Hope it works out as soon as I install it(UPS says it'll be here tomorrow!).

:cheers:

 

Les,

I have to jump in here, because I agree with most of what kwillmorth had to say. I'd like to comment on a couple of things...

Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong, but Les - I don't think he believes that the "intakes" (air filter assemblies actually) GIVE 15hp. I don't.

Think about this... most of the "ram air" type boxes claim that the "ram air" really increases the hp. But then when you read about them, they do their dyno testing on a static machine. The car isn't even moving. So, the air isn't being forced into the engine anyway.

I thnk they are being deceptive. My (admittedly limited) knowledge of ram-air leads me to believe that at automotive speeds, it isn't a real factor. If you are running 6 second quarter miles at 300+ mph, then you are getting some benefit from ram-air on the top-end. But not at the speeds our Z06's run.

So, if they are lying about that - or at the very best, being misleading - what else are they being deceptive about?

Go to almost any of the web pages and tell me do you REALLY believe the numbers they are quoting?

Breathless claims the following...

"Remember, cold air means more power. Our Dyno results have already shown 22HP and 21FT/LBS of torque. Remember, this is without the benefit of the pressurized air that is created at high speeds (which means there will be more h.p. at speeds over 35 MPH. 1/4 mile tests showed 5 MPH and .35 (with the scoop attached). "

They say they got 22hp without the "pressurized air." Boy, GM IS DUMB to have spent all that money making the engine so much more expensive and complex and having to get a .550+ lift cam to pass emissions when they could have just put these things on a coupe and called it a Z06. (That was a little sarcasm from me! :) )

And they picked up 0.35 in the quarter mile from their AIR FILTER. I'll wager that you could REMOVE THE FILTER, and cut a hole and run a snorkel out the front license plate cover and not get that much improvement in your e.t.!!!

My take on the intakes, is that compared to the restrictive-looking stock LS-1 air filter assembly, there are some small gains to be made by improving the breathing abilties of the factory unit.

The 2002 Z06 virtually proves this, because GM actually opened up the box on their design.

But if you read any of the articles on how HARD GM worked to squeeze the extra hp out of the LS-6, you have to ask yourself this: Do you think GM would have included sodium filled, hollow-stem valves, a bigger cam, titanium exhaust, in the Z06, if all they REALLY HAD TO DO was improve the airbox design to get their 20hp? That defies all logic to me.
.
I mean this will all respect, but your mods are somewhat significant (shorty headers and bigger injectors) and your e.t. is only slightly better than stock. That is the whole point here, it ISN'T easy to increase the hp on these cars. It can be done, but it takes REAL changes, not spending $400 on an airbox.

The guys who take the cover off the box and tiewrap it down are getting the most bang for their buck by a factor of millions!

Again, I'm speaking for Kevin, but I don't think that is his position. It isn't mine. I think his position is that the airboxes don't do what they say they do - and if they do ANYTHING at all, they are WAY expensive for the tiny amount that they do...

Hey, I put a breathless airbox on my 2000 coupe. I decided the stock airbox for the LS-1 was really restrictive, and the Breathless was relatively cheap (seems like it was about $250). But the Z06 has more open area and I'm not convinced it needs the help like the LS-1 box did.

I do wish Donaldson made a reasonably-priced STOCK SIZED filter to put in the OEM box though.




[Modified by Tom Steele, 10:36 AM 7/10/2002]

 

The DBK ~ Please tell us of your results with the Vararam. Very interested!! Thanks!! :chevy

 

Tom,

I am not going to go into a big long winded reply. I don't believe and don't make purchase decision based on what I read on vendors web sites. It is a FACT that my T1 made 15 RWHP when 1st installed. You don't have to believe me or the many others who have had similar results. You are certainly free to believe that the cost is not worth the benefit. I have raced many Z06's, only lost to Optic (who had a Vararam, now I do). Winning races is what floats my bubble. If that is not for you OK by me.

As far as the "if it was so easy why wouldn't GM put in a different box or whatever" statement my opinion on this is that GM builds these cars to run in climates from Alaska to Florida and all places in-between. With many different conditions (dirt) and use (daily drivers etc) and did an EXCELLENT job compromising designs on things like the airbox to perform best under all these conditions. I am setting my car to run its best based on how I drive and where I drive. If you are in BG for the Z06 Fest I will be at the track Thursday and happy to show you my tail lights :)

We come from different schools Tom, clearly we will not convince each other. What I took exception to from the original post was the inference that those of us who CHOOSE to do certain mods on our cars don't need to be told by those who CHOOSE not to do those mods that I am somehow stupid (implied not said to be fair) and that I am only trying to justify my purchase as opposed to being objective and fair about results.

Les

 

I will, I'm bored. :D

I don't believe em either. But if they are lying, or exaggerating, or whatever you want to call it - then what SHOULD you believe?

Couple of thoughts:

First, different days, different dynos and different operators can give different numbers. Barometer, temp and humidity are huge factors.

Second, so the T-1 gave you 15 hp - how? You weren't moving I assume? So was it just more free-flowing?

Here's my point. I'm not calling you - or even insinuating that you are - stupid. But I'm saying that I don't buy the airbox claims. They don't pass my "does it make sense?" test. However, there are other things that violate that test for me, and some of them may be true. So, I as questions. Mainly, "Why does this work, even though it appears not to make sense to me?"

When someone answers that reasonably, I'll consider it. But far too often, people just get upset and don't really offer much except defensive remarks.

I don't mean it to be personal, I just don't see how they can give 15hp. You aren't ramming any air on a dyno, so then (as best I can tell) you must be getting all those gains from a less restrictive air-path and perhaps from a colder intake charge.

But that still doesn't answer a couple of other questions:

1. Why don't the other units make the same increase?
2. Why didn't GM do this. Yeah, I know the "they have to make them for everyone in every place" argument. But the Z06 is supposedly all about racing, and no compromises. We have tires that aren't worth a flip in the rain. That could be an EXPENSIVE lawsuit if someone got the right jury. But they took that risk. But they won't use a cold air intake even after 5 years of aftermarket models on thousands and thousands of C5s? Just doesn't completely add up to me.

I guess that is your sarcastic remark for this post? :p:

Yeah, I like to win. I also like to save money. None of the above changes the initial questions.

A. Do the airboxes really do what they say they do, and if so - how?
B. If so, why doesn't GM come up with a better breathing intake that still takes car of their warranty concerns?
C. Can you do the same thing much cheaper with tie wraps and a K&N?

Sorry, won't be there. But I would hope that with 30# injectors, and shorty headers you could beat me. But to be honest, if you are running 12.20's and assuming my car runs the standard 12.40's that you see quoted everywhere, then it would all boil down to the lights.

What do you call your school? I call mine the "thinking for yourself" school. I don't mean to be a smart alec, but I don't get the inference here. I assume that when you say we come from different schools, you feel mine is inferior to yours, so I'm wondering how?

Hmm, I can see your frustration if that is your take. But I also think it is fair for those of us who are asking these questions, and doubting the reality of the claims made by these vendors, to let those who haven't yet purchased an airbox know about our doubts...

 

Tom,

Man you are bored :) I will assume your questions are sincere and try and respond as best I can - here goes:

_________________________________
Les: I don't believe and don't make purchase decision based on what I read on vendors web sites.

Tom: I don't believe em either. But if they are lying, or exaggerating, or whatever you want to call it - then what SHOULD you believe?

Les: I believe Dyno and race results from those who have gone before me, and 20+ years of building and racing some pretty serious race cars.
____________________________________


Les: It is a FACT that my T1 made 15 RWHP when 1st installed. You don't have to believe me or the many others who have had similar results.

Tom: Couple of thoughts:

First, different days, different dynos and different operators can give different numbers. Barometer, temp and humidity are huge factors.

Ans: Same dyno, same day - 15 RWHP difference SAE corrected. Same dyno, different day, same result with a Vararam.

Second, so the T-1 gave you 15 hp - how? You weren't moving I assume? So was it just more free-flowing?

Ans: that is correct - have you seen the surface area of a T1 or Vararam vs stock? HUGE difference in flow.

Here's my point. I'm not calling you - or even insinuating that you are - stupid. But I'm saying that I don't buy the airbox claims. They don't pass my "does it make sense?" test. However, there are other things that violate that test for me, and some of them may be true. So, I as questions. Mainly, "Why does this work, even though it appears not to make sense to me?"

When someone answers that reasonably, I'll consider it. But far too often, people just get upset and don't really offer much except defensive remarks.

Les' Answer: It works for a top or bottom breather because it flows more CFM than stock which in turn leans the car out a bit and the combination = more power. The vast majority who have dyno'd the cars get similar results. The Vararam or any bottom breather also brings in more and colder air as you move but this can't be duplicated on the dyno. I will have track results soon.

But that still doesn't answer a couple of other questions:

1. Why don't the other units make the same increase?

Ans: The other units do make similar improvements when installed and tested properly IMO.

2. Why didn't GM do this. Yeah, I know the "they have to make them for everyone in every place" argument. But the Z06 is supposedly all about racing, and no compromises. We have tires that aren't worth a flip in the rain. That could be an EXPENSIVE lawsuit if someone got the right jury. But they took that risk. But they won't use a cold air intake even after 5 years of aftermarket models on thousands and thousands of C5s? Just doesn't completely add up to me.

Ans: cold air intakes have proven to add real power to f-bodies and C5's alike for years. I have offered a view as to why. Yes the Z06 was built to be a race car but take a poll and see how many on this list have ever raced their cars.
_________________________

Les: You are certainly free to believe that the cost is not worth the benefit. I have raced many Z06's, only lost to Optic (who had a Vararam, now I do). Winning races is what floats my bubble. If that is not for you OK by me.

I guess that is your sarcastic remark for this post? :p:

Les: Not sarcasm. I don't see where you mention racing your car, if you did IMO you would want any edge over the other guy (within reason, value and risk).
C. Can you do the same thing much cheaper with tie wraps and a K&N?
____________________________________

Les: If you are in BG for the Z06 Fest I will be at the track Thursday and happy to show you my tail lights :)


Tom: Sorry, won't be there. But I would hope that with 30# injectors, and shorty headers you could beat me. But to be honest, if you are running 12.20's and assuming my car runs the standard 12.40's that you see quoted everywhere, then it would all boil down to the lights.

Les: To be precise I ran a 12.19 on a very hot day at 117+ MPH. You assume much with your "standard 12.4" comment - that is achievable by some but most are in the 12.8 range unless you are very good at what you do. And BTW when you drag race the lights have nothing to do with E/T or MPH, so my original point stands. BTW the Shorty's added zero power - waste of money and I am not ashamed to admit it (have done so in the past).
________________________________

Les: We come from different schools Tom, clearly we will not convince each other.


Tom: What do you call your school? I call mine the "thinking for yourself" school. I don't mean to be a smart alec, but I don't get the inference here. I assume that when you say we come from different schools, you feel mine is inferior to yours, so I'm wondering how?

Les: Didn't say, didn't mean my "school of thinking" was better, only that we have different opinions about the value of mods, why they work and what constitutes good value. So are you implying that by thinking different from you that you are the big independent thinker here :) :)
_______________________________________


Les: What I took exception to from the original post was the inference that those of us who CHOOSE to do certain mods on our cars don't need to be told by those who CHOOSE not to do those mods that I am somehow stupid (implied not said to be fair) and that I am only trying to justify my purchase as opposed to being objective and fair about results.


Tom: Hmm, I can see your frustration if that is your take. But I also think it is fair for those of us who are asking these questions, and doubting the reality of the claims made by these vendors, to let those who haven't yet purchased an airbox know about our doubts...

Les: Yes but ... by inference you are also doubting the ducumented claims by the many of us who have objectively measured the results. As I said I don't think any amount of evidence on the power an aftermarket airbox makes over stock (and yes take a K&N and duct tape it to the T/B and you will get similar results to the T1 and Blackwing, but who would want something that hideous on this beautiful car?) is going to cause you to go buy one (different schools again)

Now I am bored - :seeya

Les