:cool:

RG

 

Most of us are not foolish enough to believe EVERYTHING that the aftermarket manufacturers say, but a lot of us have done enough monitoring, dyno testing, and racing to see that gains can be had if you know what you are doing.

It is pretty easy to just sit there and type that all of these parts are B.S. when you don't even really know what they are (MAFT, Autotap, LS1Edit). While you are doing that others are out making real world gains. Instead of just talking why not run some of your own tests and prove us all wrong already?


[Modified by rbartick, 1:53 PM 7/11/2002]

 

As I said, I don't live in an area where I have easy access to dynos or tracks.

And I apologize if I jump you here, but I think the above comment is pretty asinine. I haven't attacked anything but airboxes here. And I know what they are.

I also was able to figure out, just from the context, what an MAFT does. I am familiar with autotap, and knew that it monitored your tables in the CPU and would give you info on what the various sensors were reporting. I just wasn't sure if it would allow you to flash the cpu with new info. And I asked. And since I wasn't criticizing it, so what?

I don't believe I mentioned LS-1Edit - you guys did.

Rather than get into name calling with you, I'll just end this by saying that I really appreciate Les' attitude a lot more after corresponding with you...

Sincerely,

 

Saying that the parts can't possibly work without any testing or real knowledge of what needs to be done is asinine.


I didn't resort to name-calling. When I look at this thread your posts seem more negative than mine. You blasted at least two vendors.

Les & I have already posted numerous times that we have seen gains, and we have explained why it happened. Both of us have done autotap sessions, dyno runs, wideband O2 readings, and more. You just keep dismissing our results because they do not add to your theories. If you don't trust us when we say that the parts can be used to build power you will have to either stay stock and watch us pass you or log autotap data and dyno test for yourself.

I may seem abrupt and arrogant, but I really don't have time to sit here and write up politically correct posts that don't offend anyone. Please accept my apologies, I just try to cut through the B.S. and state my real world experiences as quickly as possible. I am not trying to offend you. Armchair and keyboard mechanics can only go so far. Experience is the real name of the game and some of us have spent hours logging and analyzing PCM data.

 

Not if your are right! :D

Seriously, if I see something that I don't think makes sense, I don't see why I shoudn't call foul. As you can see from reading back over this thread, I'm willing to listen to other folks results and theories. I may, or may not, end up agreeing with them - but that is OK!

Sorry, I didn't write that well. I wasn't accusing you of doing so - I was just saying I wasn't going to start.


Maybe we are more alike than you realize then. Much like you, I don't have time to sit and write up posts that don't offend any vendors. Especially when their web pages are so blatantly misleading.

Much like the way you feel about me, why should I feel differently about those vendors?

And I haven't attacked you or Les, just asked questions.

Likewise - 100%. We disagree on some things, but that doesn't mean I'm attacking you or trying to offend you. Just trying to understand why the air boxes work - if they do - since the info on their websites looks false to me. You guys seem to think they work, so I'm asking why. Nothing personal is intended by that.

Thanks for the response! :)

 

>>Especially when their web pages are so blatantly misleading.

This is nothing new. Remember the K&N Stub Stack for the Holley carbs back in the early 80s? How about the original TPI TB airfoil developed by Myron Cottrell at TPISpecialties in 1985. I think an 11 HP gain rings a bell?

I don’t really believe everything I read on the vendor’s sites, but I do trust the experiences of fellow respected members. At least two members have already installed the Vararam and they claim that they got real gains (Powershifter/Optic). I wasn’t there to witness the runs, but I don’t doubt their claims. Even Les got beat by a stock Z06 with just a VaraRam. I am not really sure what is going on there, but I have to say that I am impressive with the VaraRam. I will probably try it in the future after I am done playing with the parts I have now.

I’m with you 100% on the Ram Air situation. I don’t think it is responsible for any real airflow gains. I personally think the airflow gains are coming from the “cooler” intake air and the less restrictive airbox and filter. The cooler intake air can be easily measured with Autotap. FWIW I have a Kawasaki ZX-11 with a factory ram air setup. The ZX-11 setup looks like it has a MUCH better chance of actually providing a small pressure increase than the Vararam does. First of all the ZX-11 system is sealed as tight as a drum. If I put my hand over the intake grill in the front while slowly revving the motor I can feel the motor pulling my hand into the intake tract pretty hard. I wonder if the same can be said about VaraRam? Secondly, the ZX-11 intake tract is a straight shot right into the motor. The Vararam takes a curve before going into the motor.

In conclusion I must say that the same age-old hotrodding techniques still apply to the Z06. If you get a little more air into the engine and optimize the A/F ratio at WOT you will make more power. Decreasing the intake air temp and opening up the airbox can help get more air into the motor. The stock mixture is usually a bit rich (maybe about low 12s, high 11s) from the factory. Lean it out a bit and the power will come. We are not really talking about huge power gains here and I understand if this stuff is not for everyone. I’ll take every extra HP I can get. :)


[Modified by rbartick, 1:19 PM 7/12/2002]

 

RB

I am with you on needing every HP I can get, that is the edge I need and why I like to race Vipers :)

Les

 

You are gonna need that power. My brother has a Viper GTS and it makes big power & TQ. The chart below shows runs from both cars done on the same day. In these run my car is bone stock and his car is stock except for drop-in K&Ns and smooth tubes connecting the stock airbox to the stock TBs. His mods can be equated to a bone stock C5 with a drop-in K&N panel filter and a new air bridge.

 

RB

Impressive dyno. Optic and I have raced a few Vipers at our local track, including a NICE supercharged model. So far we are batting 1000, with street tires they don't handle the power well and seem able to run 12.2 - 12.5 but that is about it - again on OUR track.

Les

 

The GTS has mundo low-end torque and it is a very tough car to launch. Really good drivers have been able to run 11s with them in stock form. I can believe that you & Optic are beating their E.Ts. OTOH, I would be willing to bet the Snakes are running much higher MPH. Most stock Z06 runs I've seen trap at about 115-117 MPH. Stock GTS Vipers trap around 120 or more, and they are still pulling quite hard at that speed. Increase the race to a 1/2 mile and the Viper is way ahead.

 

Tom, I had a y-shaped dual K&N on my '99 C5 Automatic (Convertible) . As you stated, regarding the other air filter system, the biggest difference was at high RPM (i.e. especially WOT after stabilizing at about 30-40 mph). There was a substantial difference in the pull when it kicked into passing gear at WOT. I also ran it right after reinstalling the stock filter and, as expected, the difference was obvious. I have no idea what the time difference would be with/without the K&N's in a 1/4 mile run but I'm certain, all other things being equal, that the run with the K&N's would be a little quicker.
I'm having a new set of dual K&N's put on next week to replace the stock air filter on my '02 ZO6. Will let you all know how that one "feels". Has anyone out there put these dual K&N's on their '02 Z? What's the verdict vs. stock? :D

 

Excellent discussion. You guys really know your stuff. Maybe I can get some help. I dyno'd my car last night and it was right about where I thought it would for a bone stock, dirty airfilter, poopiety spark plugs and 90 degree heat and humidity. My third pull netted an SAE corrected 343rwhp and 341rwtq.

We autotapped the car as well and saw an interesting phenomemon. The timing advance dropped as the engine rpms increased. The car had no knock to retard the timing. What would cause this ? My friends 02 Ram Air T/A had the same advance (26 degrees) the whole way through....

Engine Speed(RPM) Ignition Timing Advance(°) Knock Retard(Deg) O2 Sensor - B1S1(Volts) O2 Sensor - B2S1(Volts)
2601.00 38.00 0 .105 .230
2621.80 38.00 0 .365 .080
2646.80 18.00 0 .935 .945
2738.50 22.50 0 .930 .925
2838.30 22.50 0 .925 .930
2926.00 23.00 0 .920 .930
3012.80 23.00 0 .915 .930
3113.80 23.50 0 .915 .920
3211.50 23.50 0 .910 .920
3302.30 23.50 0 .910 .905
3394.50 23.50 0 .920 .925
3491.50 23.00 0 .920 .905
3591.30 23.00 0 .920 .935
3692.50 22.50 0 .915 .930
3804.00 22.50 0 .925 .935
3910.50 22.50 0 .930 .935
4001.80 22.50 0 .930 .925
4096.00 22.00 0 .935 .935
4190.30 21.50 0 .920 .935
4280.50 21.00 0 .935 .935
4375.50 20.50 0 .935 .935
4488.80 20.50 0 .935 .940
4575.00 20.50 0 .935 .935
4671.30 20.50 0 .935 .935
4767.80 20.50 0 .935 .955
4864.30 20.50 0 .935 .945
4964.30 20.50 0 .935 .945
5071.50 20.50 0 .935 .945
5165.00 20.50 0 .935 .935
5263.00 20.50 0 .935 .945
5365.50 20.50 0 .920 .945
5447.30 20.50 0 .935 .940
5540.00 20.50 0 .930 .935
5634.80 20.50 0 .930 .950
5736.00 20.50 0 .930 .945
5822.80 21.00 0 .930 .935
5912.30 20.50 0 .925 .940
5993.80 20.50 0 .935 .940
6074.00 20.50 0 .925 .945
6163.80 20.50 0 .930 .935
6243.30 20.50 0 .920 .940

What would cause this ? And am I losing horsepower and how do I adjust to get it back ?

 

MTI Ram Air. 19 rw hp. "True" cold air and a much higher chance of a "ramming" effect (if you believe in that kind of thing). Just don't drive it through a deep puddle.

 

I'd go with the Blackwing. Fit and finish is excellent quality. A snap to install and no need for an expensive maft translater. The Blackwing is a true "bolt-on" product :cheers:

 

Blackwing! Gains you can feel and lowest chance of the deadly HYDROLOCK. It was also featured in one of these Vette Mags (I forget which one) and it tested a 14HP gain. :D

 

Donaldson for me.

 

I think I did almost the same thing, rather than shell out a few hundred bucks. Eckler's sent me a replacement for the top shell of my air intake; their version is the stock but with the entire center section inside the retainer straps cut out......huge open area. Above 4500 rpm it seems to pull much stronger, but it may be my wierd psyche telling me it is.......I'm not a pro driver, just love to go really fast in my Z06. Anyway, it cost $70 plus some time to put it back together. Oh yes....you do need a front-edge hood seal....cheap, fast, almost invisible. Party on Wayne!!! :cheers:

 

Just looking around on the board and stumbled across another member's page and found some more interesting data on "Ram Air" systems...
http://www.vetteguru.com/ramair

 

Man, I posted that quote close to a month ago. You really want to bring this back from the dead? I saw that WWW page a while back and I am not convinced that he is correct in all of his assumptions. Reading something on the WWW does not prove all that much.

Even if the Vararam did not get a real pressure increase (and rear ram air) it still lowers IAT temps, which will let you make more consistent power. When your IAT temps rise, timing gets pulled. The table below is from LS1Edit. Trust me when I tell you that IAT temps get very high in the heat with the stock airbox. I truly believe that you should leave your car bone stock.

 

Sorry, didn't see it. As for whether it is correct or not, I'm sure that can be researched fairly easy. There is plenty of information about ram-air available if we do a search on JET ENGINES. I suspect the reason we find so little about ram-air on CARS is because there isn't any REAL INFO on the subject. Since there is no ram-air at automobile speeds. The reason I posted it is because it is another example of everything I have ever heard from my aerospace-engineer buddies. At automobile speeds, ram-air doesn't happen.

I don't have a problem with the cold-air theory. If you are actually getting cold air, then I believe the same laws of physics that make me question the ram-air crap, SUPPORT the cold air theory. I would just want to measure and make sure that the air a couple inches off the black asphalt really is colder. If it is, then fine - but a Vortex should work as well as a Vararam or a Halltech or any other cold-air intake box...

I assume you are being sincere rather than smart-alec here. If you are being sarcastic, then I would ask you to rise above that crap and let's discuss ideas rather than getting upset because someone questions another person's idea or belief...

If you are sincere, then I would say you don't know me well enough yet to advise me on that.

When I was younger, I built my own (Small Block Ford) engines, ported and polished my own heads with Motorsports sodium-filled valves (yeah, back in the early 80s, and man were they expensive!), roller rockers and the works. I ran a Crane solid cam with .596 lift and 260 duration at .050! I am not a stranger to modifying a car.

I've done headers, gears and such on my Mustangs after college.

I'm getting older now and I don't have the time for all that stuff, or at least not as MUCH time. I did a bunch of the easy/cheap stuff to my 2000 Corvette - tbb bypass, 178 stat, MAT sensor relocate, Vortex, MAF screen removal, etc...

I'm not convinced those things did all that much to make the car faster. I raced maybe 6 or 7 Corvettes over the 2 1/2 years I had the car, and I beat all but one - however, a lot of them were autos, some with the 2.73 gear. The one that dead-even tied me was a MY 2000 MN6 convertible. We were dead even to about 120mph before we shut down. He didn't have any mods done to his car... So, who knows what mattered and what didn't on the above mod list.

On to now. There are some folks making a LOT of money charging a LOT of money for air intakes. There are a lot of folks here with plenty of cash that are willing to spend it for just a "maybe it will help" insurance policy.

I'm not one of them (and there isn't anything wrong with it if you can throw cash like that.) But I'd like to know why it is working before I shell out the cash.

The manufacturers (even by everyone here's admission) don't seem to be able to provide that information. Their web pages are ABSURD, OUTLANDISH or out-right lies. The science on their pages? There isn't much of any as far as I can tell. And that screams out for me to wonder what the real deal is?

The fact that they use bad science by claiming ram-air, and what appear to be outright lies (35hp and nearly 0.4 seconds in the 1/4 mile!), to sell the product, tells me to question the whole thing. That just seems like good sense.

So I don't see why it is wrong to question these things.