Almost all IL is 10%

 

Be that as it may, the O2 does still read in lambda. As long as the fuel trims required to achieve your new stoich aren't outside of the limitations set forth, then you won't get a check engine light. Same way it compensates for E10. I've heard of some Subie owners that installed larger injectors and ran with the stock tune on E85 with good results. I sure as hell don't advocate that, this is the guy whose first mod to his bone stock 1998 GMC K1500 was EFI Live.

 

^^ haha - yeah, the computers in the later GM vehicles are pretty flexible. heck, i've talked to some guys who've swapped 4.8s to 6.0s in their trucks & drove them on the same tune to the dyno shop... not that it didn't run lean as a runway model, but it still was drivable so long as you didn't mash on it

 

Same here. Common sense is not very prevalent in our society anymore (read government). With the exception of a very few things, virtually everything the government touches turns to crap. They try to manipulate everything and in doing so, screw it up royally. Another 4 years of stupidity awaits us.

 

Typical alarmist BS.

The EPA has just allowed the sale of E15, but they require that you buy 4 gallons or more, and for the gas to be clearly marked as E15 to make sure that people don't use it in lawn mowers, and other small engines. I don't think gas stations will sell it, because its too complicated to do so.

Everyone calm down, virtually all gas stations are still going to sell max E10.

 

Wow, there's a lot of misinformed people in here.

I'm not going to argue the dumb points about "food" in "fuel", because it is just that... dumb.

I'm also not going to argue about mileage as that is true.

But one thing I want to mention is that E10 blends help extend the life of your motor. It's actually proven that the ethanol blends help clean your motor and fuel system requiring you to almost never need an injection system cleaner.

Another plus is that your motor will run cooler on an ethanol blend than with straight gasoline.

Not quite. Your numbers are skewed. Ethanol has 71% of the energy capacity of gasoline gallon for gallon; not 60%. Also, ethanol has a more violent and longer burning combustion than gasoline, so you don't lose power. You DO however, lose mileage.

I've been running E10 for 12 years without any trouble. Same with the rest of California. I don't see what the problem is. I think it's just people feeding into fear tactics.

BTW, while you people can keep blaming the Obama administration, you guys have to realize the door swings both ways.

Both left and right are using fear tactics to get you to think how they want you to think. You should think for yourselves first. I'm not trying to insult anyone here or be condescending, but you have to take some facts into account:

A) California and other states have been using E10 blends a very long time. Here in Los Angeles, all of the environmental laws passed to help get rid of smog have paid off. We're not even remotely one of the smoggiest cities anymore and yet we still have the most cars. Cities like Dallas trump Los Angeles by a long shot. In 2011, Dallas was named the smog capital of the states. Texas doesn't have even remotely the environmental laws that Los Angeles has, and it shows.

B) There are definitely lots of pros for ethanol blends (and yes there are cons too), but for a horsepower loving crowd such as this forum is, it doesn't make sense there's so much opposition to it considering ethanol is used by racing teams as a cheap alternative to high octane race fuel. There's a reason they run it. NA and FI motors make more power on it and they do it safer. Ethanol burns cooler too, so cooling your motor isn't nearly as hard or expensive.

C) Everyone worried about corrosion and seals don't realize that ALL cars made in 1992 and up can handle E10 blends and ALL cars made in 2000 and up can handle E15. Long before these fuels were put out for public distribution, the manufacturers were all warned by the U.S. government (back in the 80's) that ethanol blends were going to be mandated. And so the manufactures started using stainless steel lines rather than rubber. Fuel pumps were made to handle the alcohol blends. Fuel injectors didn't actually need any changes because the gasoline is what lubricated them.

D) Cars that sit with E10 blends for months at a time without moving have no trouble with starting right up (assuming they were running before). E10 blends don't attract mass amounts of water like so many people scream and shout about. It's a myth. The car would have to sit for over a year and probably still wouldn't have enough water in the tank to cause any issues to the motor. With E85 summer blends, that's a different story, but not with E10 and it won't happen with E15 either. My dad bought a car that had been sitting for 3 years without ever being started. It had an E10 blend in the tank. When they went to fire it up, it started right up no problem! Guess what car it was? It was a 1985 Corvette. (Shocking?)

Either way, at the end of the day, you guys are really worried about something that has no real issues. E15 or E10, it's not going to hurt our cars. ESPECIALLY LSx motors.

The only thing that is weird about this whole situation is the 4 gallon minimum. I honestly don't think that will be enforced if it makes it to common law. It just doesn't make sense.

 

I decided to look up facts to see if any of them supported your skewed outlook of ethanol and I found many of them lacking support. You state that LA is not smoggy anymore and that Dallas is worse... total BS. Here you go... http://www.webmd.com/asthma/ss/slide...st-smog-cities I quote "A whopping nine of the nation's 10 smoggiest cities for ozone pollution are in California, despite tough vehicle emission requirements and pollution control efforts." And who was #1? Los Angeles. This was from April 2012. If you were REALLY interested in clean air and lower emissions, you'd be running CNG instead of corn. WAY cleaner and WAY WAY WAY less expensive. Why do you think UPS runs CNG? As for ethanol not causing problems, that's still up for debate. We know 10% ethanol gets 10% less mileage, proven over and over. 15% will get you 15% less mileage, watch and see. When I'm forced to used 10% ethanol gas when I travel, mileage drops and power drops in my 98 coupe. Very noticeable drop I might add. Of course, this is in the Corvette, not my SUV. I don't drive the SUV like the Corvette.
As Corvette owners, we're different. We (I?) bought it because we/I like the looks and performance. I'm spending easily over $5k in engine mods to get more performance. I do not want that compromised by using ethanol.
Lastly, the US and Brazil account for about 88% of the world consumption of ethanol. If ethanol is so great, why isn't Europe, Japan, etc, running the stuff? Because it isn't that great, that's why. Your perspective is from a general, overall view of things...great. That doesn't mean its right for Corvette owners. Maybe you should get a Delorean and run a Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor.
As for you being the "Executive Contrarian", wikipedia says the following: "A contrarian is a person who takes up a position opposed to that of the majority, regardless of how unpopular it may be. Contrarian styles of argument and disagreement have historically been associated with radicalism and dissent.... A typical contrarian trope takes the form "everything you know about topic X is wrong". " I'd say that is pretty descriptive of you, wouldn't you?

 

Additionaly, most people ignore or are unaware of the negative economic impact the rise of ethanol has on multiple levels of the food supply chain. The US is sitting on enormous oil reserves. If we truly wanted energy independence and increased security we would take advantage of them. As far as protecting the environment by using more ethanol as fuel, I think the results speak for themselves.

 

OK, Guys, I think some of you might have been misreading the 4 gallon drill on E-15. The government was not requiring each person to buy 4 gallons of the stuff if you don't want it. They were requiring you to buy a minimum of 4 gallons each time you buy it, IF it was dispensed through a blender (shared hose) with E10. This was to prevent people from accidentally buying it for small engines, like motorcycles, ATV's, mowers, etc. In any event the AMA is reporting that the requirement has been dropped.

http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2012/12/25/...cles-and-atvs/

Personally, I don't plan on using it myself.


Phil

 

They should warn people about E10 as well. NY State has had E10 since 2005 when MTBE (another EPA regulatory screw up) was outlawed. I have a John Deere 2 cycle string trimmer that I have been using with no problems since 2004. Last May I purchased a Home Depot Ryobi 2 cycle Leaf Blower and proceeded to use the same fuel mix I used in the trimmer. Oil mix met the Ryobi requirements. About 4 months latter just as the leaves are falling the blower refused to start. Took it in for repair under the 3 year warranty and and it was shipped to a repair depot that found out the cylinder block had to be replaced. The repair depot refused to honor the warranty since I used E10 gas in the motor. Problem is they didn't state anything about not using it and I can't get anything else but E10 unless I want to go down to the local race shop and pay $9/gal for race fuel.

Bill

 

First, let me say you need to learn to use the Enter key. That would make reading this gibberish less annoying. Secondly, I'm not doing the multi-quote stuff right now. I got someone talking to me while I write this so my concentration is all over the place.

What I find interesting is that I did a google search for all sorts of different lists of cities based on smog and pollution. Your list is far from the same as many of the other lists out there. Your list shows Cali in the worst way compared to every other list. However, you're right about the state still being smoggy. Yet, we still do have the most vehicles (including big rigs) because we're the highest consumers and we buy the most cars.

Now, your numbers about mileage are completely wrong. If they were right, I'd be getting less than 26 MPG in my Corvette, not 28+. However, that's not the case. Z06's are rated at 28MPG and that's what they get on the freeway. Going to Vegas I averaged between 28 and 29MPG. Coming back from Vegas I averaged 27-28MPG. 10% of 28 is 2.8. 28-2.8 = 25.2 <-- That's NOT the economy I get. I get 28MPG on the freeway.

Streets and highway I average 20MPG. Sometimes 21, but lately traffic has been really bad (another reason for increased smog, but we can leave that for a later conversation).

"Why do you think UPS runs CNG?" There's only so many places you can get CNG around here. CNG fill up stations can't be located near residential housing. At least, here they can't be. I don't know the safety laws where you are.

"When I'm forced to used 10% ethanol gas when I travel, mileage drops and power drops in my 98 coupe." That's nice. You have to take into account your motor isn't used to E10. We all know there's a drop in mileage, nobody's saying there isn't. But there isn't a drop in power. That's BS. You may just be feeling the difference in altitude for all I know. GM states these cars make x amount of power and that's precisely what they make here on E10. If you THINK you're not feeling all the power of your car because you're on E10, it's in your head or your car hasn't adjusted. It's that simple.


"If ethanol is so great, why isn't Europe, Japan, etc, running the stuff?"

Odd, I could have sworn they DO use it:
http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.asp...ph=consumption

http://sugarcane.org/global-policies...anol-in-europe
http://gain.fas.usda.gov/Recent%20GA...n_7-2-2012.pdf

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009...s_30098294.php
"As for you being the "Executive Contrarian", wikipedia says the following: "A contrarian is a person who takes up a position opposed to that of the majority, regardless of how unpopular it may be. Contrarian styles of argument and disagreement have historically been associated with radicalism and dissent.... A typical contrarian trope takes the form "everything you know about topic X is wrong". " I'd say that is pretty descriptive of you, wouldn't you?"

Why did the chicken cross the road?


Ethanol isn't made from food grade corn. I agree, it shouldn't be made from corn at all. It should be made from sugar cane. But regardless, it's not made with the same crops we use for food. That was a scare tactic farmers created to hike up costs of corn. Anyone still saying this doesn't know anything about how ethanol is actually made. The bi-product of making ethanol is live-stock feed. So if you were right, are you saying we shouldn't be feeding human food to animals (which we also eat)?

 

I'll start using the Enter key more as requested. I certainly wouldn't want to annoy you. As for the multi-quote stuff in your first paragraph.... I think you missed the boat there.

As to your google searching, I googled "cities with most smog in the US" and I simply went to the #1 post. I didn't have to search far to find it. I'm sure there are other sites that show different data.

As far as my numbers on mileage being wrong, alas, you are in the wrong here. You're comparing the factory stated mileage and comparing it to what you get. What you failed to do is try and see what of mileage you'd get with 100% gas. So in essence, you don't know WTF you're talking about. You have no real life numbers to compare it to. You only have 10% gas available to you. I have both 100% gas and 10% ethanol gas available to me and have used both. You're just plain wrong. EOS. And as for power, same thing. You have nothing to compare it with. Need to drop that line of reasoning until you're able to provide real comparisons. You might be getting 30-31mpg if you were using 100% gas. But you don't know that because you haven't used it. There's plenty of forum members stating 30-32mpg in their cars. If they used 10% ethanol gas, they would NOT get that.

I knew that Europe and Japan use ethanol. They sure don't use much of it however. Combined they represent less than 10% of worldwide use. I didn't state they were ethanol teetotalers, even if you perceived that.

Why did the chicken cross the road? It was too far to go around.

Lastly, while we might disagree on some subjects, we obviously both love Corvettes. And as an American, I would fight and give my life if needed, to protect the ability for you to disagree with me. Cheers and enjoy your 'contrarianism'.

 

Gents, I don't want to get in the middle of your "discussion" but I feel it's unavoidable.

I just wanted to share this link I received from my local Corvette club:

List of non-ethanol stations in the U.S.

Click on your state on the bottom for the list of cities, or click on MAP near the top to be bombarded with pointers to stations. Navigate to your hometown to see the stations in your area.

ps: Why did the chicken cross the road? He was too chicken to cross the highway.

.

 

As far as my numbers on mileage being wrong, alas, you are in the wrong here. You're comparing the factory stated mileage and comparing it to what you get. What you failed to do is try and see what of mileage you'd get with 100% gas. So in essence, you don't know WTF you're talking about. You have no real life numbers to compare it to. You only have 10% gas available to you. I have both 100% gas and 10% ethanol gas available to me and have used both. You're just plain wrong. EOS. And as for power, same thing. You have nothing to compare it with. Need to drop that line of reasoning until you're able to provide real comparisons. You might be getting 30-31mpg if you were using 100% gas. But you don't know that because you haven't used it. There's plenty of forum members stating 30-32mpg in their cars. If they used 10% ethanol gas, they would NOT get that.

I have debated SCM_CRASH before on this subject. I found him to be more than willing to listen to opposing views if the argument had logic and fact at its core. Your mileage argument is simply incorrect. Following your logic, if I used E-85 I would get 85% poorer mileage when, in fact it works out to between 25-30% less mileage. And, Crash readily admits that.

If you really want a point to debate, try this. In my area of the country (S.E. Michigan) E-85 is now priced the same as regular no lead. Why in the world would I pay the same price for 25 to 30% poorer mileage.

The rest of this debate is more emotional than factual.

Last, Wikipedia is not the best source to quote on anything.

Scott

 

I knew this was coming. Last three years we've had a drought and what does the EPA do, raise the amount of Ethanol in gas. let me guess, we're buying corn from China !

I have a 2007 Pontiac Grand prix with the L32 engine package 3.8 Liter with a Eaton M-90 self oiling supercharger on it. And right on page of the owners manual it states in bold lettering that" this vehicle MUST use a Gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher, AND it must not contain any more than 10% ethanol.

So if my engine dies off from running this crap 15% ethanol will the EPA fix my engine??? I doubt they ever care. The two most powerful agencies in our government are the FAA & the EPA. you cannot fight them. And if it's like this on the east coast, what is it like in California. What's this crap cost $5.29.9 ?

I'm really getting sick of this government we have in this country. They listen to only big money and super Pac's

 

Perfect Quote

 

 

killain,

You do not have to buy the stuff if you don't want to. If you do buy it, you must buy at least 4 gallons at a time IF it is coming out of a shared (blender) nozzle with E10. This is to prevent it from being used in motorcycles, ATV's, lawnmowers, etc., which it will surely damage. For more info, see my previous post. Here is another link on the subject:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/epa-...hanol-15-pumps

BY the way, E15 is not available in CA and won't be for years, if ever.


Phil

 

I am aware that Ethanol is primarily made from field corn. We can argue the economics, but the fact is higher ethanol production has increased the cost of food at the consumer and other levels. This is the point I was making. To me, the current state of ethanol production is a small answer to a big problem, a diversion that leads to increased food costs and higher taxes for the average Joe.

 

Lol. Nice way to start the year with a good joke. The EPA is all about $