*** E15 Gas warning ***
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 12
From: Los Angeles California
I'll start using the Enter key more as requested. I certainly wouldn't want to annoy you. As for the multi-quote stuff in your first paragraph.... I think you missed the boat there.
As to your google searching, I googled "cities with most smog in the US" and I simply went to the #1 post. I didn't have to search far to find it. I'm sure there are other sites that show different data.
As far as my numbers on mileage being wrong, alas, you are in the wrong here. You're comparing the factory stated mileage and comparing it to what you get. What you failed to do is try and see what of mileage you'd get with 100% gas. So in essence, you don't know WTF you're talking about. You have no real life numbers to compare it to. You only have 10% gas available to you. I have both 100% gas and 10% ethanol gas available to me and have used both. You're just plain wrong. EOS. And as for power, same thing. You have nothing to compare it with. Need to drop that line of reasoning until you're able to provide real comparisons. You might be getting 30-31mpg if you were using 100% gas. But you don't know that because you haven't used it. There's plenty of forum members stating 30-32mpg in their cars. If they used 10% ethanol gas, they would NOT get that.
I knew that Europe and Japan use ethanol. They sure don't use much of it however. Combined they represent less than 10% of worldwide use. I didn't state they were ethanol teetotalers, even if you perceived that.
Why did the chicken cross the road? It was too far to go around.
Lastly, while we might disagree on some subjects, we obviously both love Corvettes. And as an American, I would fight and give my life if needed, to protect the ability for you to disagree with me. Cheers and enjoy your 'contrarianism'.
As to your google searching, I googled "cities with most smog in the US" and I simply went to the #1 post. I didn't have to search far to find it. I'm sure there are other sites that show different data.
As far as my numbers on mileage being wrong, alas, you are in the wrong here. You're comparing the factory stated mileage and comparing it to what you get. What you failed to do is try and see what of mileage you'd get with 100% gas. So in essence, you don't know WTF you're talking about. You have no real life numbers to compare it to. You only have 10% gas available to you. I have both 100% gas and 10% ethanol gas available to me and have used both. You're just plain wrong. EOS. And as for power, same thing. You have nothing to compare it with. Need to drop that line of reasoning until you're able to provide real comparisons. You might be getting 30-31mpg if you were using 100% gas. But you don't know that because you haven't used it. There's plenty of forum members stating 30-32mpg in their cars. If they used 10% ethanol gas, they would NOT get that.
I knew that Europe and Japan use ethanol. They sure don't use much of it however. Combined they represent less than 10% of worldwide use. I didn't state they were ethanol teetotalers, even if you perceived that.
Why did the chicken cross the road? It was too far to go around.
Lastly, while we might disagree on some subjects, we obviously both love Corvettes. And as an American, I would fight and give my life if needed, to protect the ability for you to disagree with me. Cheers and enjoy your 'contrarianism'.
LOL... First off, real world data:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....n=sbs&id=18303
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f4/wh...eflect-114019/
I'm not the only one on this planet getting 18/28... In fact, MOST stock Z06s are getting that. Fancy that, they weren't all sold in California too. (Go figure!) No really... Go figure it out. Real numbers.
Secondly, of course Europe and Japan don't use as much. Japan can fit in California. Europe isn't bigger either (by any margin). So what makes you think they're going to use more? We have more cars here and less strict fuel economy ratings. They pay double what we pay for fuel in Europe. What makes you think they'd even consume the same amount of gasoline let alone E85.
Sorry, but your point doesn't make any sense.
I have debated SCM_CRASH before on this subject. I found him to be more than willing to listen to opposing views if the argument had logic and fact at its core. Your mileage argument is simply incorrect. Following your logic, if I used E-85 I would get 85% poorer mileage when, in fact it works out to between 25-30% less mileage. And, Crash readily admits that.
If you really want a point to debate, try this. In my area of the country (S.E. Michigan) E-85 is now priced the same as regular no lead. Why in the world would I pay the same price for 25 to 30% poorer mileage.
The rest of this debate is more emotional than factual.
Last, Wikipedia is not the best source to quote on anything.
Scott
If you really want a point to debate, try this. In my area of the country (S.E. Michigan) E-85 is now priced the same as regular no lead. Why in the world would I pay the same price for 25 to 30% poorer mileage.
The rest of this debate is more emotional than factual.
Last, Wikipedia is not the best source to quote on anything.
Scott
I am aware that Ethanol is primarily made from field corn. We can argue the economics, but the fact is higher ethanol production has increased the cost of food at the consumer and other levels. This is the point I was making. To me, the current state of ethanol production is a small answer to a big problem, a diversion that leads to increased food costs and higher taxes for the average Joe.
However, I'm not quite sure how ethanol production hurts food cost. Nobody's been able to show me a direct link or even a reaching correlation that would provide any evidence as to why ethanol production has increased food cost. I'm 99% sure food cost went up the same reason gasoline costs go up. And lets be honest, large farming corporations are a lot like OPEC, and find any reason they can to hike up prices. E85 was only one of those ruses. If things keep up the way I've seen over the past 10 years, it won't be long before they really start looking like OPEC and burn down farms. LOL
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,857
Likes: 2
From: pawleys island sc
You can't avoid it.
The EPA has mandated that each person buying fuel must buy a minimum of 4 gallons of E15.
The EPA could care less about your warranty. The EPA, as well as concerned Americans, is looking out for our health and the environment.
That is the BIG PICTURE.
Old cars (older than 2010) and hot rods will, and should be, off the highways and only carried on trailers to car shows.
Links:
Left leaning link: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...rchase-mandate
Right leaning link: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Fuel-Standards
Amazing both the left and right agree.
Oh, and in B4TL.....
The EPA has mandated that each person buying fuel must buy a minimum of 4 gallons of E15.
The EPA could care less about your warranty. The EPA, as well as concerned Americans, is looking out for our health and the environment.
That is the BIG PICTURE.
Old cars (older than 2010) and hot rods will, and should be, off the highways and only carried on trailers to car shows.
Links:
Left leaning link: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...rchase-mandate
Right leaning link: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Fuel-Standards
Amazing both the left and right agree.
Oh, and in B4TL.....
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,526
Likes: 17
From: Santa Fe TX
I am aware that Ethanol is primarily made from field corn. We can argue the economics, but the fact is higher ethanol production has increased the cost of food at the consumer and other levels. This is the point I was making. To me, the current state of ethanol production is a small answer to a big problem, a diversion that leads to increased food costs and higher taxes for the average Joe.
Both of these things are because of the corn lobby.
And I believe that corn sugar is largely to blame for America's obesity problem. The chemical corn sugar syrup messes with your metabolism and eating habits the way real cane sugar never could.
The answer of course is to get corn out of our food and fuel, but then what do you do with it? Ever taste grass fed beef next to corn fed beef? Unreal difference in taste and texture.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,528
Likes: 752
From: South Dakota
Wow, there's a lot of misinformed people in here.......
Not quite. Your numbers are skewed. Ethanol has 71% of the energy capacity of gasoline gallon for gallon; not 60%. Also, ethanol has a more violent and longer burning combustion than gasoline, so you don't lose power. You DO however, lose mileage............
Around here E10 is everywhere. Even in the premium.
Ethanol blends may help for octane to allow huge boost pressures and advanced timing on modified cars with special tuning, but for the stock or nearly stock I don't like it.
Ethanol only has about 60% of the energy that gas does, so a 10% blend has about 4% less energy than pure gas.
For most of us it means about that much less power and mileage not to mention problems with corrosion and seals in older cars.
A 15% blend is even worse and I have heard that some manufacturers are starting litigation to limit it to 10%. I am not hopeful. I think the politics of ethanol will prevent us from having pure gas any more. That is sad, and I didn't vote for another 4 years of the current administration.
Ethanol blends may help for octane to allow huge boost pressures and advanced timing on modified cars with special tuning, but for the stock or nearly stock I don't like it.
Ethanol only has about 60% of the energy that gas does, so a 10% blend has about 4% less energy than pure gas.
For most of us it means about that much less power and mileage not to mention problems with corrosion and seals in older cars.
A 15% blend is even worse and I have heard that some manufacturers are starting litigation to limit it to 10%. I am not hopeful. I think the politics of ethanol will prevent us from having pure gas any more. That is sad, and I didn't vote for another 4 years of the current administration.
I stated about ethanol has about 60% of the energy of gas and based on government data (see link below) it comes out to as low as 60.21% by weight. Looking at it by volume comes out to about 65% to 66%.
The calculations I get show ethanol has
65.46% to 66.76% by volume.
60.21% to 61.49% by weight
Data and calculated values below:
gas 114000 BTU/gal
Ethanol 76100 BTU/gal
Ethanol=66.76% of Gas
gas 116090 BTU/gal
Ethanol 76000 BTU/gal
Ethanol=65.46% of Gas
gas 18700 to 19100 BTU/lb
Ethanol 11500 BTU/lb
Ethanol= 60.21% to 61.49% of Gas
Sources of Data below:
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
http://dnr.louisiana.gov/assets/TAD/...P/auto/k/k.htm
When you try to make a point that someone is wrong, at least take the time to get your information right.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 46
From: Springfield IL.
Oldtimer
. LOL[/QUOTE]
Crash, looks like you're in another ethanol debate here
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year
Crash, looks like you're in another ethanol debate here
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year
Last edited by 92GA; Jan 4, 2013 at 06:31 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 20,593
Likes: 127
From: Sugarcane town Florida
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 46
From: Springfield IL.
Oldtimer
Runs quicker and faster, and cooler with E85 period. I run all season on 1 oil change using Mobil 1 just like I use in the Vette. When I tore the engine down for winter maintenance, I was amazed how clean everything was. And I was running Turbo Blue unleaded the previous year.
Is this the fuel for every application? Probably not, BUT is doesn't deserve the bad rap most guys on here give it either. Opinions are like you know what--- everybody has one, but some don't know what they are talking about.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 12
From: Los Angeles California
I don't think you got the numbers right either. I can not find how you arrive at ethanol having 71% of the energy of gas.
I stated about ethanol has about 60% of the energy of gas and based on government data (see link below) it comes out to as low as 60.21% by weight. Looking at it by volume comes out to about 65% to 66%.
The calculations I get show ethanol has
65.46% to 66.76% by volume.
60.21% to 61.49% by weight
Data and calculated values below:
gas 114000 BTU/gal
Ethanol 76100 BTU/gal
Ethanol=66.76% of Gas
gas 116090 BTU/gal
Ethanol 76000 BTU/gal
Ethanol=65.46% of Gas
gas 18700 to 19100 BTU/lb
Ethanol 11500 BTU/lb
Ethanol= 60.21% to 61.49% of Gas
Sources of Data below:
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
http://dnr.louisiana.gov/assets/TAD/...P/auto/k/k.htm
When you try to make a point that someone is wrong, at least take the time to get your information right.
I stated about ethanol has about 60% of the energy of gas and based on government data (see link below) it comes out to as low as 60.21% by weight. Looking at it by volume comes out to about 65% to 66%.
The calculations I get show ethanol has
65.46% to 66.76% by volume.
60.21% to 61.49% by weight
Data and calculated values below:
gas 114000 BTU/gal
Ethanol 76100 BTU/gal
Ethanol=66.76% of Gas
gas 116090 BTU/gal
Ethanol 76000 BTU/gal
Ethanol=65.46% of Gas
gas 18700 to 19100 BTU/lb
Ethanol 11500 BTU/lb
Ethanol= 60.21% to 61.49% of Gas
Sources of Data below:
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
http://dnr.louisiana.gov/assets/TAD/...P/auto/k/k.htm
When you try to make a point that someone is wrong, at least take the time to get your information right.
This compares STRAIGHT gasoline to Ethanol by BTU, as well as other types of gasoline and bio fuels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
Why not ask me where I get my info before you tell me to get my info right? LOL
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 12
From: Los Angeles California
Either way, we all know you get worse economy with E85. The problem was that this test was performed in the least scientific way, and doesn't use a control. As a real world test, they'd need to perform their steps many times before they can properly average out their results. In addition, their performance test was totally BS. If they wanted to do a performance test, they should have put the truck on a dyno.
That being said, the flex fuel SUV they were using was (as stated before) just adding fuel. That's all it does to adjust for E85.
Sorry, but that test is utter BS.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
From: Auburn Alabama
Crash, looks like you're in another ethanol debate here
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Just wonder how nascar has been able to sustain all that HORSE POWER running 100% ethanol. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Just wonder how nascar has been able to sustain all that HORSE POWER running 100% ethanol. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year
I would rather not tear down the engine to "tell the tale" that it needs new gaskets. E15 / E85 is good if your car was designed/built to support it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 12
From: Los Angeles California
Crash, looks like you're in another ethanol debate here
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Just wonder how nascar has been able to sustain all that HORSE POWER running 100% ethanol. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Just wonder how nascar has been able to sustain all that HORSE POWER running 100% ethanol. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year
And exactly what gaskets are you referring to that may somehow be damaged by E85?
This video demonstrates that non-flex-fuel vehicles COULD use E85 (assuming you upgrade the injectors and fix the tune) without damaging your motor.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 981
Likes: 469
From: Roseville MI
Crash, looks like you're in another ethanol debate here
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Just wonder how nascar has been able to sustain all that HORSE POWER running 100% ethanol. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year[/QUOTE]
OK, it's time to start thinking about your responses before you post them. I am siding with Crash in this debate but, guys, do some research before posting. NASCAR does NOT use 100% ethanol in their race vehicles. Sunoco provides 100 octane E-15 racing fuel for the Sprint Cup cars.
Scott
You're never going to convince these guys. They will NEVER believe, unless they try it for themselves. I don't know of 1 guy that has tried ethanol and went back to gas. Just wonder how nascar has been able to sustain all that HORSE POWER running 100% ethanol. Ever notice how much more tape they run on the nose now? Wonder why? I'll just continue running it in my race car and reap the benifits of having a CLEAN engine. The tear down tales the tale.
Happy new year
[/QUOTE]OK, it's time to start thinking about your responses before you post them. I am siding with Crash in this debate but, guys, do some research before posting. NASCAR does NOT use 100% ethanol in their race vehicles. Sunoco provides 100 octane E-15 racing fuel for the Sprint Cup cars.
Scott
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,528
Likes: 752
From: South Dakota
I got the information from Wikipedia. Thought you'd find it right away:
This compares STRAIGHT gasoline to Ethanol by BTU, as well as other types of gasoline and bio fuels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
Why not ask me where I get my info before you tell me to get my info right? LOL
This compares STRAIGHT gasoline to Ethanol by BTU, as well as other types of gasoline and bio fuels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
Why not ask me where I get my info before you tell me to get my info right? LOL
Because you still have it wrong.
Using your link the wikipedia source shows 66.67% where your post shows 71%. However the 85% ethanol blend has 71.94%, so maybe you just misread the table.
Like I said, Please get your info right.
And also as you said, "Why not ask me where I get my info before you tell me to get my info right? LOL". You didn't when you stated my info was bad.
As for others talking about an ethanol debate and the merits of ethanol. I agree that for many race applications it can be a good fuel and better than gas for some. However in a normal street car without special tuning, there is a loss of mileage.
Last edited by QCVette; Jan 4, 2013 at 02:09 PM. Reason: spelling
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 46
From: Springfield IL.
Oldtimer
OK, it's time to start thinking about your responses before you post them. I am siding with Crash in this debate but, guys, do some research before posting. NASCAR does NOT use 100% ethanol in their race vehicles. Sunoco provides 100 octane E-15 racing fuel for the Sprint Cup cars.
Scott[/QUOTE]
You are quite right. Please accept my appoligy. I went on what our local race fuel supplier suggested, he was wrong. I did an edit on my post because I don't want to spread the wrong info. Guess he was trying to get me to buy race ethanol at that point. I declined because I can save a 1.50 a gallon at the pump. I don't think nascar should be advertising ethanol only running 15%, I know I wouldn't.
I haven't replaced any gaskets because of ethanol, anymore than race gas. When you do a winter check, you normally have to replace gaskets no matter what fuel ya use.
Scott[/QUOTE]
You are quite right. Please accept my appoligy. I went on what our local race fuel supplier suggested, he was wrong. I did an edit on my post because I don't want to spread the wrong info. Guess he was trying to get me to buy race ethanol at that point. I declined because I can save a 1.50 a gallon at the pump. I don't think nascar should be advertising ethanol only running 15%, I know I wouldn't.
I haven't replaced any gaskets because of ethanol, anymore than race gas. When you do a winter check, you normally have to replace gaskets no matter what fuel ya use.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 20,593
Likes: 127
From: Sugarcane town Florida
How about this theory.
The Gubmint wants to pat itself on the back by implementing higher MPG standards for cars.
But they lose revenue from less gasoline being sold per mile.
So the EPA, under the guise of cleaner air, forces gasoline producers to put 10% ethanol into the gas which reduces mileage thus increasing the amount of gasoline sold. This does slightly claw back some of the lost gas tax revenue.
So by forcing E15 onto everybody the EPA counter acts the higher mpg requirements on cars( required by the Gubmint) by making everyone buy a gasoline blend that reduces mpg further, thus increasing gasoline sales and increasing gas tax revenue.
Eventually, everyone will be taxed for each and every mile they drive. Regardless of how much gas they buy.
Per mile taxation is not very far off.
It's all about the money.
The Gubmint wants to pat itself on the back by implementing higher MPG standards for cars.
But they lose revenue from less gasoline being sold per mile.
So the EPA, under the guise of cleaner air, forces gasoline producers to put 10% ethanol into the gas which reduces mileage thus increasing the amount of gasoline sold. This does slightly claw back some of the lost gas tax revenue.
So by forcing E15 onto everybody the EPA counter acts the higher mpg requirements on cars( required by the Gubmint) by making everyone buy a gasoline blend that reduces mpg further, thus increasing gasoline sales and increasing gas tax revenue.
Eventually, everyone will be taxed for each and every mile they drive. Regardless of how much gas they buy.
Per mile taxation is not very far off.
It's all about the money.
Last edited by TwoSmoke; Jan 4, 2013 at 11:35 PM.
