Header question
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 935
Likes: 103
OP I considered doing the same as you.
But I have read the 1 7/8 Headers are a very tight fit versus 1 3/4 and that 1 7/8 also results in torque losses in a mostly otherwise stock engine.
For a similar price you should check out XS Power Headers, with X-pipe (catless) they are $774. Great reviews on them.
But I have read the 1 7/8 Headers are a very tight fit versus 1 3/4 and that 1 7/8 also results in torque losses in a mostly otherwise stock engine.
For a similar price you should check out XS Power Headers, with X-pipe (catless) they are $774. Great reviews on them.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 244
Likes: 103
From: Pueblo West CO
TSP longtubes, Random Tech High Flow cats (I think they're out of business now), SLP Loudmouth resonators, Flowmaster back half.
This is just a startup and a couple revs on the day I picked it up from the tuner. I need to do a walk around and some drive bys...
This is just a startup and a couple revs on the day I picked it up from the tuner. I need to do a walk around and some drive bys...
Last edited by Dirty Dog; Mar 25, 2017 at 07:32 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 142
From: Lynn MA
Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,511
Likes: 22
From: Southern MD
If you are interested in Kooks we can do a great deal on headers and xpipe. Give us a call @443-730-9428 or stop by our website.
http://marylandspeed.com/getingear-i-24.html
But if you call we give out better deals over the phone. Ask for Holly.
http://marylandspeed.com/getingear-i-24.html
But if you call we give out better deals over the phone. Ask for Holly.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 270
Likes: 1
From: Springfield OH
I've had Dynatech SuperMaxx stainless steel exhaust system long tube headers, high flow cats with x-pipe on my 2000 FRC for over ten years. Did the install with simple tools in my garage and was straightforward and easy. Very pleased all these years and no problems whatsoever.
Going from stock exhaust manifold to long tube headers will bring a great big
to your face!
Going from stock exhaust manifold to long tube headers will bring a great big
to your face!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 799
Likes: 160
From: Landenberg PA
Thanks for all the great responses. I am now convinced to just bite the bullet and by a package (Headers/Cats/X-Pipe). Just need to squirrel away a few more pennies as I will have to also pay for install.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 265
Likes: 25
From: Houston Texas
I am running an 03 with the TSP 1 7/8" headers, high flow catted x-pipe (also from TSP) and stock mufflers (for the moment till I find a deal on a Corsa Extreme).
Personal experience is as follows:
1) Fitment was spot on although I have heard of other people having occasional issues with the flange on the headers not being perfectly planed. This seems to be real hit or miss for some people.
2) The fit and finish of the headers and x pipe was quite good, although not perfect in places like the collector.
3) The sound of my car definitely improved over the stock manifolds, even with stock mufflers still in place.
4) Valve train noise is substantially increased over stock (sewing machine sound).
5) I compiled the exhaust upgrade with plugs, wires, low temp t-stat and a really solid dyno tune and picked up about 45 HP on the top end. More impressive though was under the curve where I picked up almost 125hp at about 3000 rpm! (I am not convinced even on a relatively mild ls that 1 7/8" headers will cost you power down low. TSP even released some test data they produced which showed as much.)
All in all, for the money I think that the TSP headers and X-Pipe are a good option. LG, ARH and Kooks are the big boys when it comes to headers but at almost double the cost of TSP or XS Power, it comes down to what is value for you.
If you have any questions about my experience, just drop me a line.
Personal experience is as follows:
1) Fitment was spot on although I have heard of other people having occasional issues with the flange on the headers not being perfectly planed. This seems to be real hit or miss for some people.
2) The fit and finish of the headers and x pipe was quite good, although not perfect in places like the collector.
3) The sound of my car definitely improved over the stock manifolds, even with stock mufflers still in place.
4) Valve train noise is substantially increased over stock (sewing machine sound).
5) I compiled the exhaust upgrade with plugs, wires, low temp t-stat and a really solid dyno tune and picked up about 45 HP on the top end. More impressive though was under the curve where I picked up almost 125hp at about 3000 rpm! (I am not convinced even on a relatively mild ls that 1 7/8" headers will cost you power down low. TSP even released some test data they produced which showed as much.)
All in all, for the money I think that the TSP headers and X-Pipe are a good option. LG, ARH and Kooks are the big boys when it comes to headers but at almost double the cost of TSP or XS Power, it comes down to what is value for you.
If you have any questions about my experience, just drop me a line.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 935
Likes: 103
I just realized TSP has the 1 3/4" headers (headers only, no X-pipe) with flanges/adaptors to connect to your stock exhaust with a total price of $450.
This is the lowest price I have ever seen on headers for our cars, other than shorties. I'd like to hear of anyone else that has run these headers without the X-pipe. This looks very tempting.
This is the lowest price I have ever seen on headers for our cars, other than shorties. I'd like to hear of anyone else that has run these headers without the X-pipe. This looks very tempting.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 244
Likes: 103
From: Pueblo West CO
I just realized TSP has the 1 3/4" headers (headers only, no X-pipe) with flanges/adaptors to connect to your stock exhaust with a total price of $450.
This is the lowest price I have ever seen on headers for our cars, other than shorties. I'd like to hear of anyone else that has run these headers without the X-pipe. This looks very tempting.
This is the lowest price I have ever seen on headers for our cars, other than shorties. I'd like to hear of anyone else that has run these headers without the X-pipe. This looks very tempting.
If you run shorties, you can actually be fully legal. Long tubes will never pass the letter of the law. The law saws you cannot change the number or location of your cat(s). Long tubes, of necessity, move the cats somewhat further from the engine. While a car with long tubes can pass a sniffer test (mine can), it can never truly be street legal because the position of the cats has been changed.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 935
Likes: 103
Apples and oranges. Long tubes and shorties.
If you run shorties, you can actually be fully legal. Long tubes will never pass the letter of the law. The law saws you cannot change the number or location of your cat(s). Long tubes, of necessity, move the cats somewhat further from the engine. While a car with long tubes can pass a sniffer test (mine can), it can never truly be street legal because the position of the cats has been changed.
If you run shorties, you can actually be fully legal. Long tubes will never pass the letter of the law. The law saws you cannot change the number or location of your cat(s). Long tubes, of necessity, move the cats somewhat further from the engine. While a car with long tubes can pass a sniffer test (mine can), it can never truly be street legal because the position of the cats has been changed.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,278
Likes: 539
From: Kelowna BC
Apples and oranges. Long tubes and shorties.
If you run shorties, you can actually be fully legal. Long tubes will never pass the letter of the law. The law saws you cannot change the number or location of your cat(s). Long tubes, of necessity, move the cats somewhat further from the engine. While a car with long tubes can pass a sniffer test (mine can), it can never truly be street legal because the position of the cats has been changed.
If you run shorties, you can actually be fully legal. Long tubes will never pass the letter of the law. The law saws you cannot change the number or location of your cat(s). Long tubes, of necessity, move the cats somewhat further from the engine. While a car with long tubes can pass a sniffer test (mine can), it can never truly be street legal because the position of the cats has been changed.
It's beyond this though, as many headers would allow the cats to remain in the same place, even my TSP headers; my Magnaflow cats are in the same place as the factory ones were IIRC. I think it's more about any exhaust modification before the cats as well, not just their placement. Also, you are not allowed in many places to move the O2 sensors. That's the big catch I think.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 244
Likes: 103
From: Pueblo West CO
The law in certain countries / states / provinces... perhaps.
It's beyond this though, as many headers would allow the cats to remain in the same place, even my TSP headers; my Magnaflow cats are in the same place as the factory ones were IIRC. I think it's more about any exhaust modification before the cats as well, not just their placement. Also, you are not allowed in many places to move the O2 sensors. That's the big catch I think.
It's beyond this though, as many headers would allow the cats to remain in the same place, even my TSP headers; my Magnaflow cats are in the same place as the factory ones were IIRC. I think it's more about any exhaust modification before the cats as well, not just their placement. Also, you are not allowed in many places to move the O2 sensors. That's the big catch I think.
Taken from http://www.catalyticconverter.org/law/
Rules for Replacing Converters
In 1986, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency issued new guidelines for the construction, efficiency and installation of aftermarket catalytic converters. All CleanAir converters listed in this catalog have been designed, tested and manufactured to meet this policy.
In addition, CleanAir converter listed in this catalog is appropriate for use under the current requirements of the California Air Resources Board (C.A.R.B.).
E.P.A. guidelines state that replacement converters may be installed only in the following situations:
1. The vehicle is missing a converter
2. A state or local inspection program has determined that the existing converter needs replacement
3. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1996 must have more than 50,000 miles, and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented
4. In cases of OBD Il-equipped vehicles (1996 and later), the O.E. manufacturer's 8-year/80,000-mile warranty must have expired and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented.
Please note that Federal law prohibits removal or replacement of a properly functioning O.E. converter.
When replacement of the converter is appropriate (as outlined above), the E.P.A. further requires that:
1. It be installed in the same location as the original
2. It be the same type as the original (i.e., two-way, three-way, three-way plus air/three-way plus oxidation)
3. It be the proper model for the vehicle application as determined and specified by the manufacturer
4. It be properly connected to any existing air injection components on the vehicle
5. It be installed with any other required converter for a particular application
6. It be accompanied by a warranty information card to be completed by the installer.
In 1986, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency issued new guidelines for the construction, efficiency and installation of aftermarket catalytic converters. All CleanAir converters listed in this catalog have been designed, tested and manufactured to meet this policy.
In addition, CleanAir converter listed in this catalog is appropriate for use under the current requirements of the California Air Resources Board (C.A.R.B.).
E.P.A. guidelines state that replacement converters may be installed only in the following situations:
1. The vehicle is missing a converter
2. A state or local inspection program has determined that the existing converter needs replacement
3. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1996 must have more than 50,000 miles, and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented
4. In cases of OBD Il-equipped vehicles (1996 and later), the O.E. manufacturer's 8-year/80,000-mile warranty must have expired and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented.
Please note that Federal law prohibits removal or replacement of a properly functioning O.E. converter.
When replacement of the converter is appropriate (as outlined above), the E.P.A. further requires that:
1. It be installed in the same location as the original
2. It be the same type as the original (i.e., two-way, three-way, three-way plus air/three-way plus oxidation)
3. It be the proper model for the vehicle application as determined and specified by the manufacturer
4. It be properly connected to any existing air injection components on the vehicle
5. It be installed with any other required converter for a particular application
6. It be accompanied by a warranty information card to be completed by the installer.
Now, I'm not saying it isn't a stupid rule. My own opinion is that as long as you are at or below the legal emissions levels (the sniff test) you should be fine.
But the fact remains that if you live in the USA, you cannot actually be street legal with long tube headers. Long tubes always move the cats further away from the engine, and thus violate the letter of the law.
If your state doesn't do inspections, then obviously it's extremely unlikely that you'll ever have a problem. Colorado doesn't do inspections. I'm running long tubes. My car will pass the sniff test, which keeps it within the spirit of the law ("let's leave some breathable air for our children and grandchildren") but not within the letter of the law.
Feel free to check out the EPA website if you'd like more proof.
Last edited by Dirty Dog; Mar 31, 2017 at 02:55 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 935
Likes: 103
Ok anyway,
Who else here is running the TSP headers without the X-pipe, just using the connector pipes to the stock exhaust? I'd like to hear about fitment, power gains etc. $450 is an impressive deal for C5 headers.
(Also dirty dog if you look up what we are talking about here, these headers with adaptor pipes don't relocate the cats... they hook up before the cats)
Who else here is running the TSP headers without the X-pipe, just using the connector pipes to the stock exhaust? I'd like to hear about fitment, power gains etc. $450 is an impressive deal for C5 headers.
(Also dirty dog if you look up what we are talking about here, these headers with adaptor pipes don't relocate the cats... they hook up before the cats)
Last edited by Roddy13; Mar 31, 2017 at 03:05 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 244
Likes: 103
From: Pueblo West CO
Ok anyway,
Who else here is running the TSP headers without the X-pipe, just using the connector pipes to the stock exhaust? I'd like to hear about fitment, power gains etc. $450 is an impressive deal for C5 headers.
(Also dirty dog if you look up what we are talking about here, these headers with adaptor pipes don't relocate the cats... they hook up before the cats)
Who else here is running the TSP headers without the X-pipe, just using the connector pipes to the stock exhaust? I'd like to hear about fitment, power gains etc. $450 is an impressive deal for C5 headers.
(Also dirty dog if you look up what we are talking about here, these headers with adaptor pipes don't relocate the cats... they hook up before the cats)
As a matter of fact, they are the same headers I have on my Vette.
This is the headers with adapters in place. As you can see, the "off road adapters" clearly extend beyond the rear of the cats.
With my original engine, I did not use their adapters. Instead, I attached a pair of Random Technologies high flow cats (which are most definitely NOT in the stock location) and then made pipe to connect to the stock H pipe. That engine with CAI, that exhaust, and a tune made 335/344 at the wheels.
Long tube headers cannot be used on these cars without relocating or removing the cats. If you want to remain within the letter of the law, you have to use shorties or mid-length headers.
Those can work very well. I had a set of MAC mid-length headers and Y pipe on a blown/stroked '95 TA and put down about 575 to the wheels while remaining 100% legal.
Last edited by Dirty Dog; Mar 31, 2017 at 04:34 PM.
.
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,023
Likes: 1,150
From: Oregon
St. Jude Donor '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22-'23
The law in certain countries / states / provinces... perhaps.
It's beyond this though, as many headers would allow the cats to remain in the same place, even my TSP headers; my Magnaflow cats are in the same place as the factory ones were IIRC. I think it's more about any exhaust modification before the cats as well, not just their placement. Also, you are not allowed in many places to move the O2 sensors. That's the big catch I think.
It's beyond this though, as many headers would allow the cats to remain in the same place, even my TSP headers; my Magnaflow cats are in the same place as the factory ones were IIRC. I think it's more about any exhaust modification before the cats as well, not just their placement. Also, you are not allowed in many places to move the O2 sensors. That's the big catch I think.
It all depends on the laws where you live. In Oregon I run Hinson headers and X pipe and am completely Legal
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,278
Likes: 539
From: Kelowna BC
Ok anyway,
Who else here is running the TSP headers without the X-pipe, just using the connector pipes to the stock exhaust? I'd like to hear about fitment, power gains etc. $450 is an impressive deal for C5 headers.
(Also dirty dog if you look up what we are talking about here, these headers with adaptor pipes don't relocate the cats... they hook up before the cats)
Who else here is running the TSP headers without the X-pipe, just using the connector pipes to the stock exhaust? I'd like to hear about fitment, power gains etc. $450 is an impressive deal for C5 headers.
(Also dirty dog if you look up what we are talking about here, these headers with adaptor pipes don't relocate the cats... they hook up before the cats)
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,278
Likes: 539
From: Kelowna BC
Here's XS Power headers, showing that if one installed cats right after a quick bend post collector (with the X after the cats), one could easily install the cats in the "factory location". The O2 sensors however would be downstream from stock; this is I'm pretty sure where the laws have a problem and what all LT's force.
Last edited by grantv; Mar 31, 2017 at 06:12 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 244
Likes: 103
From: Pueblo West CO
Just because you get away with something doesn't make it legal.
A good example is Marijuana laws. Places like Colorado claim they've made it legal. Nope. It's still illegal at the federal level. The DEA has said they're not going to enforce the federal law (although Der Trumpenfuhrer wants them to) but they can, if they choose, come in and arrest everyone in every pot shop.
Same thing with your cats. You may be getting away with it, but it's still illegal. Hell, I get away with driving 100MPH or more on the interstate on a regular basis.
Doesn't make it legal.