Has anyone ever tested to see how effective the GM Top End Cleaner or Sea Foam really is? I mean, have any of you actually just poured either product onto an obviously carboned engine piece, let it sit for awhile, then tried to see if the carbon was really broken down enough that a simple wipe with a rag would really remove it from the part?

If not, I would be willing to do the test, since I will soon have both products. Unfortunately, I don't think I have anything laying around with carbon on it. If I did, I would've already just put the part in the car along with the other carboned pieces! (That's a joke)

The only thing I have is an old piece of exhaust from near the tailpipe of an old rice car I have that broke off, but I'm not so sure exhaust pieces would even attract the type of carbon on them that we get on our pistons.

The reason I'm asking is because I'd like to know how effective a chemical like Top End Cleaner or Sea Foam really is. I mean, all results on this forum have been SOTP, but does that mean the stuff really gets deep enough into the carbon on pistons to actually break the carbon off? Or is it that people only feel a DIFFERENCE, and that the carbon really isn't removed, but instead only taken down enough to alleviate a ping or lower compression enough that you might notice a difference?

Of course, if I had a boroscope, or some kind of attachment I could put on a video camera or something, that would be even better, since I would be able to see the actual results of a decarb treatment on a real engine.

So, if anyone has experience in what I'm proposing, please chime in, as I, among many others, I'm sure, would be most interested in hearing from someone who's actually SEEN the effects (or lack thereof). If anyone wants to send me an old carboned-up piston, or several would be even better, I would be more than happy to test and post the results. I would test each product in hourly increments up until the products either work or fail. This way we'd also get to see how long the stuff really has to sit concentrated on a spot to even work.

I'd also test different levels of concentration, since many of us do the intake method, which I think (hopefully, erroneously) probably does not concentrate as much of the liquid on the pistons as the direct-into-the spark-plug-holes method does. Speaking of which, is directly dosing the cylinders necessarily better than the dosing via the intake method?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

Good post. We certainly need to know more about anything we propose to do to the engine to better decide whether we really need to do it.

I design miniature medical hi-res steerable fiberscope systems and catheters which are used to snake up into the spine for diagnostics and drug-delivery and have been thinking of trying one of our setups to look into otherwise inaccessible areas of a closed engine. I should be able to get to areas you can only see normally by pulling the motor apart. The combustion chamber would be pretty easy to peer into.

 

So, what do you propose we do? Since I probably have a carbon problem, with KR pulling me into the low octane table at 4900 RPM, I would be willing to scope my car before and after the decarb process to see. If you send me a unit, I'll use it and send it back. Don't know how expensive they are, but I can give you a credit car number for collateral if you like. Just let me know.

 

So, what do you propose we do? Since I probably have a carbon problem, with KR pulling me into the low octane table at 4900 RPM, I would be willing to scope my car before and after the decarb process to see. If you send me a unit, I'll use it and send it back. Don't know how expensive they are, but I can give you a credit card number for collateral if you like. Just let me know.

EDIT: Whoops, just re-read your post. I probably don't have more than a $100K limit on my card to even have you approve. I originally didn't realize the extent of the product you're talking about. I mean, anything made for the medical industry is at least a quarter mill, right?

 

I don't know about SEAFOAM, but the GM cleaner is the same as I used to use in outboards. The cleaner itself won't disolve the carbon, I believe it is absorbed by the carbon and then burned. On an outboard, after treatment, you had to do a full throttle run for 10 minutes to burn it out.

I do have access to a boroscope, and the one thing I can tell you is I had heavy carbon deposits within 1,000 miles on my 02 when I got it.

 

I hadn't considered that's what would happen
And that's EXACTLY the same principle when used in a car, except you don't redline a car engine for 10 minutes. :-)
Did you ever do a GM Top End Cleaner or Sea Foam dosage on your '02, then look again?

If so, what were the results... and, which method did you use to dose? Pour into the intake with the engine running, or did you pour into the spark plug holes?

If not, are you considering doing it?

In either case, thanks for the feedback.

 

I honestly couldn't tell you what Seafoam actually does to the carbon but I can give you a situation where we used it...

My first car that I got to consider my own... '68 Buick Skylark bought in '92 with only 32000 original miles on it. The engine was all carboned up because the 91 year old driver only took the car down the street for the grocery store and church.

When my dad first bought the car, he would tell me to go out on the highway and hit it... well, choke, choke, plume of black smoke, then ride first gear in the 350 w/ powerglide up to 70MPH before I got scared and backed off... but I digress

We poured a whole can of Seafoam into the carb one afternoon and smoked out the neighbor (sorry!) A few days after that I really didn't notice any hesitation or black smoke under heavy acceleration. Did it really remove the carbon? Not sure, but it definately seemed to help.

 

Gm Top end cleaner works great on the Cadillac northstar engine. In our shop we have been using it for a few years

 

A friend of mine is a Parts and Service Director for a GMC Caddy dealership, and says the Northstars have a similar carbon build-up issue.

Do you know if your service techs use the cleaner via the intake while the engine's running, or do they go the route of removing plugs and pouring through the spark plug holes?

I would think that if a service facility charges for the work and does it through the intake, then that must be working WELL, right? Otherwise, they'd have switched to the through-the-plugs-holes method. I'm trying to determine if the dosing through the intake really will cover the pistons with enough product to do the job. While the through-the-plugs-holes method sounds more effective, through the intake is cleaner, easier and helps clean the rest of the intake system, and not just the cylinders. Unless, you really have to do both.

Thanks for the input.

 

I'm interested in this topic as well; but my concern would be the effect of the cleaner on cylinder walls, valve guide seals, engine oil, etc. I do realize that you are supposed to change the oil directly after, but what about the period in between while you are running the motor with this stuff in the cylinders? My experience has shown that cylinder walls (at least Nikasil coated liners, anyway) are incredibly durable, so maybe my concerns are unfounded.

 

Yes, it is rather expensive stuff. I can borrow it for a day and scope my car.

When I did heads/cam on my car, the motor only had 2900 miles on it. The piston tops were coated with a thick layer of carbon deposit that required us to scrape them with a razor blade. If it's that bad after just 3K miles, imagine what a 30K motor is like. I've never heard of the GM top end cleaner hurting an engine and the results reported here portray it as at least innocuous, if not effective.

 

I never went back and looked inside my motor. I did develop a startup tick, and used the GM cleaner. It definitely helped. I also have my oil analyzed after each change by Terry Dyson, and after using the GM cleaner he asked what had changed (I didn't tell him beforehand, I wanted to see if he could pick up the fact that I had been using something). He made another recommendation for carbon, don't remember the product and would have to go back and find his e-mail. But his recommendations are usually spot on so I would use a product he recommends.

 

I'd be interested in hearing what he recommended, if it's not too much trouble.

 

Just got home and looked it up, it is a product call "Fuel Power" and it can be found at this web site. Note, I have not used this product to date.

Fuel Power

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

What about BG 44K ? Any boby bsides me try it and like the results?

 

I followed protocall found here for the intake method using two cans of top end cleaner. I noticed a difference at start-up right away. Let the car sit for 12 hours and then fired it up the next morning (kind of rough but took it down the road and blew the stuff out) Had a smoke cloud for about a half mile behind me. Car has put about 800 miles on it and I notice that the start-up tick is back. The procedure worked but it seems that it was short lived. I have a 97 with 34k on it, so you can get an idea of what to expect. Would like to know of a better procedure, such as spark-plug hole or whether an oil catch can would help out.

 

Thanks for the report.

Seems to me that the GM Top End Cleaner worked for you then, but since you did nothing to prevent the oil from getting back into the intake after decarbing it, you saw the condition return. Another member mentioned recently that at only 1000 miles (or something low like that) on a new car, he used a scope to look in the cylinders and was surprised to see how much carbon there was, which sounds about right if your condition has returned after the 800 miles.

I've done the DIY catch-can recently and see much more oil than I expected. If I were you, I would do a catch-can, then decarb again. If the catch-can stops the oil, you will probably be in good shape. At least, that's what I think.

As far as start-up tick is concerned I think you've got that piston slap some motors are susceptible to. You might want to check out some info on that. From what I understand, the slap only happens for a short period after start up, then goes away. GM has re-ringed engines for that on a case by case basis.