ETP vs AFR vs DART
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 901
Likes: 1
From: Oxford PA
It may be hard to convince anyone about the heads they are all quailty heads. But if its gonna be my buck I have to say the AFR. They are proven both on the track and the dyno. I have yet to hear a bad thing about them.....
I have seen a car with a stage3 port with flow number in excess of 300+ in bench testing. And when that head cracked he went to the AFR for thicker deck. And no problems picked up 2MPH over the other head. No changes other than the head swap and temp/weather would be considered equal. If anything it was a little hotter out. The only problem I cant afford them at the moment.
I have seen a car with a stage3 port with flow number in excess of 300+ in bench testing. And when that head cracked he went to the AFR for thicker deck. And no problems picked up 2MPH over the other head. No changes other than the head swap and temp/weather would be considered equal. If anything it was a little hotter out. The only problem I cant afford them at the moment.
Former Vendor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,749
Likes: 4
From: Valencia Ca
I dont have time to get into a long winded post but in the end it would read something like this....comparing advertised flow numbers is a HUGE waste of time. The stuff isn't even tested on the same type of equipment. Its like trying to compare dyno numbers without a correction factor for altitude. Different benches of the same brand can read differently....throw in the fact some of the listed companies above dont test on the same equipment and it really skews the results. Plus the reality of advertising is it's just that....advertising. Some vendors are much closer to their advertised numbers in the real world than others.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
..add to this....AFR heads are CARB certified and all factory components bolt on, no additional parts required.
Last, when it comes to customer service, warranty, and R&D commitment...look to AFR.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,475
Likes: 332
From: Port Arthur, Texas 77642
My vote for AFR 
whenever a comparison arises the AFR product seems to be the one everybody wants to knock off the fence....nobody ever made a bad decision buying AFR...."Quality is only hard to pay for the FIRST time"....everytime after that it just makes common sense 
whenever a comparison arises the AFR product seems to be the one everybody wants to knock off the fence....nobody ever made a bad decision buying AFR...."Quality is only hard to pay for the FIRST time"....everytime after that it just makes common sense
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 933
Likes: 0
From: St. Paul MN
A repost from the first page:
Can anybody comment on the importance of exhaust flow? Most of the conversations I've seen or participated in seem to center around intake runner size and flow as well as combustion chamber size. Obviously exhaust flow does matter as I would imagine the more efficently the piston can push the spent gases out of the chamber the better but how do real numbers translate into real horsepower? Take, for example, the AFR and the ETP heads. Both are well respected but from what I've heard the ETP head is the head of choice for big hp gains. However, the ETP heads flow significantly less on the exhaust side than do the AFR heads. Is this an example of the "law of diminishing returns?" That is, is this a case that at some point an increase of exhaust flow has less and less of an impact on overall performance within a certain RPM range? I would imagine this is the case of intake flow as well but is it more prevalent in exhaust flow?
AFR 205cc 66cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 140 112
.300 200 170
.400 251 203
.500 281 221
.550 292 226
ETP 215cc 11 degree casts 62cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 152 106
.300 219 152
.400 266 190
.500 301 204
.550 312 208
Can anybody comment on the importance of exhaust flow? Most of the conversations I've seen or participated in seem to center around intake runner size and flow as well as combustion chamber size. Obviously exhaust flow does matter as I would imagine the more efficently the piston can push the spent gases out of the chamber the better but how do real numbers translate into real horsepower? Take, for example, the AFR and the ETP heads. Both are well respected but from what I've heard the ETP head is the head of choice for big hp gains. However, the ETP heads flow significantly less on the exhaust side than do the AFR heads. Is this an example of the "law of diminishing returns?" That is, is this a case that at some point an increase of exhaust flow has less and less of an impact on overall performance within a certain RPM range? I would imagine this is the case of intake flow as well but is it more prevalent in exhaust flow?
AFR 205cc 66cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 140 112
.300 200 170
.400 251 203
.500 281 221
.550 292 226
ETP 215cc 11 degree casts 62cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 152 106
.300 219 152
.400 266 190
.500 301 204
.550 312 208
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,405
Likes: 26
From: Whippany NJ
CI 6-7-8-9 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
NCM Sinkhole Donor
I dont have time to get into a long winded post but in the end it would read something like this....comparing advertised flow numbers is a HUGE waste of time. The stuff isn't even tested on the same type of equipment. Its like trying to compare dyno numbers without a correction factor for altitude. Different benches of the same brand can read differently....throw in the fact some of the listed companies above dont test on the same equipment and it really skews the results. Plus the reality of advertising is it's just that....advertising. Some vendors are much closer to their advertised numbers in the real world than others.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
floe numbers on paper means nothing...in the end its about how well your car performs.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,405
Likes: 26
From: Whippany NJ
CI 6-7-8-9 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
NCM Sinkhole Donor
I dont have time to get into a long winded post but in the end it would read something like this....comparing advertised flow numbers is a HUGE waste of time. The stuff isn't even tested on the same type of equipment. Its like trying to compare dyno numbers without a correction factor for altitude. Different benches of the same brand can read differently....throw in the fact some of the listed companies above dont test on the same equipment and it really skews the results. Plus the reality of advertising is it's just that....advertising. Some vendors are much closer to their advertised numbers in the real world than others.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
flow numbers on paper means nothing except to help advertise...in the end its about how well your car performs after an upgrade with the right parts combination
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 50,808
Likes: 10
From: Buy USA products! Check the label! Employ Americans
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 933
Likes: 0
From: St. Paul MN
A repost from the first page:
Can anybody comment on the importance of exhaust flow? Most of the conversations I've seen or participated in seem to center around intake runner size and flow as well as combustion chamber size. Obviously exhaust flow does matter as I would imagine the more efficently the piston can push the spent gases out of the chamber the better but how do real numbers translate into real horsepower? Take, for example, the AFR and the ETP heads. Both are well respected but from what I've heard the ETP head is the head of choice for big hp gains. However, the ETP heads flow significantly less on the exhaust side than do the AFR heads. Is this an example of the "law of diminishing returns?" That is, is this a case that at some point an increase of exhaust flow has less and less of an impact on overall performance within a certain RPM range? I would imagine this is the case of intake flow as well but is it more prevalent in exhaust flow?
AFR 205cc 66cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 140 112
.300 200 170
.400 251 203
.500 281 221
.550 292 226
ETP 215cc 11 degree casts 62cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 152 106
.300 219 152
.400 266 190
.500 301 204
.550 312 208
Can anybody comment on the importance of exhaust flow? Most of the conversations I've seen or participated in seem to center around intake runner size and flow as well as combustion chamber size. Obviously exhaust flow does matter as I would imagine the more efficently the piston can push the spent gases out of the chamber the better but how do real numbers translate into real horsepower? Take, for example, the AFR and the ETP heads. Both are well respected but from what I've heard the ETP head is the head of choice for big hp gains. However, the ETP heads flow significantly less on the exhaust side than do the AFR heads. Is this an example of the "law of diminishing returns?" That is, is this a case that at some point an increase of exhaust flow has less and less of an impact on overall performance within a certain RPM range? I would imagine this is the case of intake flow as well but is it more prevalent in exhaust flow?
AFR 205cc 66cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 140 112
.300 200 170
.400 251 203
.500 281 221
.550 292 226
ETP 215cc 11 degree casts 62cc combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 152 106
.300 219 152
.400 266 190
.500 301 204
.550 312 208
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
Likes: 232
From: SoCal
I dont have time to get into a long winded post but in the end it would read something like this....comparing advertised flow numbers is a HUGE waste of time. The stuff isn't even tested on the same type of equipment. Its like trying to compare dyno numbers without a correction factor for altitude. Different benches of the same brand can read differently....throw in the fact some of the listed companies above dont test on the same equipment and it really skews the results. Plus the reality of advertising is it's just that....advertising. Some vendors are much closer to their advertised numbers in the real world than others.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
Look at who's heads produce the most consistant results regardless of shop or installer....truly independent numbers from various sources. Do that and your search of "whos' heads are best" will become a much simpler task leaving you with far fewer options to choose from and further investigate.
Tony
PS....Then throw customer service and ease of install in the mix after you narrow the choices down based on performance.
I sure hope the AFR 225 is a good head
DH
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,475
Likes: 332
From: Port Arthur, Texas 77642
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 33
From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
Speed World Challange. The LPE heads I mentioned above are for Speed World Challenge Corvettes.
The are very high flow heads and used with the GMPP Grand AM Cup cam, dry sump and light weight rotating assembly fast 90/90 produce in the 530-550 BHP range and 7200-7400 rpms.
The air restrictor plate placed in front of the 90 tb bring the powered down to 500-520 bhp on the LS6 and LS2 blocks
The are very high flow heads and used with the GMPP Grand AM Cup cam, dry sump and light weight rotating assembly fast 90/90 produce in the 530-550 BHP range and 7200-7400 rpms.
The air restrictor plate placed in front of the 90 tb bring the powered down to 500-520 bhp on the LS6 and LS2 blocks
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 901
Likes: 1
From: Oxford PA
Many people run the 225 on LS1/6 motors. They can be ordered for the small bore. My plan is to run the 225 with the 72cc combustion chamber for F/I on an 347 in the near future I hope. The 225 sing like a bird up top.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 901
Likes: 1
From: Oxford PA
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1866963
There for real... POST #17 interesting reading
There for real... POST #17 interesting reading
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 27
From: WTB Kook 2" long tube 4 C5 TEXAS
One of my winter projects
LS6 LPE SWGT
240 Runner
60.9 combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 150 117
.300 225 168
.400 273 202
.500 291 217
.550 304 221
.600 311 222
Still working on what cam to use.
possibles:
comp 232/234 595/598 112 XE-R XER281HR
or
LG GX3 234/242 600/610 112
LS6 LPE SWGT
240 Runner
60.9 combustion chamber
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
.200 150 117
.300 225 168
.400 273 202
.500 291 217
.550 304 221
.600 311 222
Still working on what cam to use.
possibles:
comp 232/234 595/598 112 XE-R XER281HR
or
LG GX3 234/242 600/610 112
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...sl-61969.shtml
Real Customer. Real Ride. Real Results.
Bolt-on 437 Rear Wheel Horsepower to your LS1with this Performance-Proven Recipe
Mike Esterly of Lisbon Ohio is a PPG automotive sales representative by day and avid automotive enthusiast by night. When it came to choosing the right cylinder heads for his 2001 LS1 powered Corvette, Mike chose the Edelbrock/Lingenfelter LS1 CNC heads, #61969. Mike was so impressed with his off-the-shelf recipe for big LS1 power that he wanted to share his results with us. This is a real customer with real results using off-the-shelf parts.
Vehicle
Year: 2001
Make: Chevrolet
Model: Corvette
CID: 346 (5.7L)
Modifications at baseline
- Breathless Performance Long Tube Headers, no catalytic converters
- Breathless Performance Air Dam
- Vortex Cold Air Intake
- Corsa X-Pipe and Pace Car Exhaust
- 160° Thermostat
Baseline HP: 346.8
Baseline Torque: 363.6
Head and Cam Upgrade
Cylinder Heads: Edelbrock/Lingenfelter LS1CNC #61969
Intake Runner Volume: 203cc
Exhaust Runner: Volume: 83cc
Intake Valve diameter: 2.02" stainless steel
Exhaust Valve diameter: 1.57" stainless steel
Combustion Chamber: 65cc
Springs: Comp 918 (1.055" / 1.290" O.D.)
Retainers: 10° Titanium
Camshaft: COMP XER281HR
Intake: .595"-lift / 232° duration @ .050"
Exhaust: .598"-lift / 234° duration @ .050"
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
Clutch: Xedey twin disk
Tune: Brian Herter (mail-order tune)
Flow Data: As measured on a 3.900" bore @ 28" H2O
Lift .200" .300" .400" .450" .500" .550" .600"
Intake 141 200.3 245.1 264.8 282 294.6 300.5
Exhaust 114.6 162.9 196.3 202.6 208.6 213.7 216.9
CLICK HERE... for dyno proven results
Follow-Up Dyno Run (After Head and Cam Install)
New HP: 436.7 (89.9 HP Gain) AT THE WHEELS!
New Torque: 406.6 (43 Ft/Lb of Torque Gain) AT THE WHEELS!
Dyno testing performed at:
BigShot Dyno
6381 Chittenden Rd., BLDG C
Hudson, OH 44236
www.bigshotdyno.com
With enough power to rocket this Vette to a mid eleven second quarter-mile pass while maintaining the drivability to accommodate weekend cruising at 28-32 MPG, Mike's results prove the Edelbrock/Lingenfelter LS1 Heads bolt-on and perform to the extreme. Mike has also shared that these numbers were achieved with a rather rich 11.8:1 air/fuel ratio; we're looking forward to Mike's follow-up once the air/fuel ratio is dialed-in.
Please note: These results are as submitted as testimonial from an Edelbrock customer. Results may vary and Edelbrock makes no guarantees to these performance results
Bolt-on 437 Rear Wheel Horsepower to your LS1with this Performance-Proven Recipe
Mike Esterly of Lisbon Ohio is a PPG automotive sales representative by day and avid automotive enthusiast by night. When it came to choosing the right cylinder heads for his 2001 LS1 powered Corvette, Mike chose the Edelbrock/Lingenfelter LS1 CNC heads, #61969. Mike was so impressed with his off-the-shelf recipe for big LS1 power that he wanted to share his results with us. This is a real customer with real results using off-the-shelf parts.
Vehicle
Year: 2001
Make: Chevrolet
Model: Corvette
CID: 346 (5.7L)
Modifications at baseline
- Breathless Performance Long Tube Headers, no catalytic converters
- Breathless Performance Air Dam
- Vortex Cold Air Intake
- Corsa X-Pipe and Pace Car Exhaust
- 160° Thermostat
Baseline HP: 346.8
Baseline Torque: 363.6
Head and Cam Upgrade
Cylinder Heads: Edelbrock/Lingenfelter LS1CNC #61969
Intake Runner Volume: 203cc
Exhaust Runner: Volume: 83cc
Intake Valve diameter: 2.02" stainless steel
Exhaust Valve diameter: 1.57" stainless steel
Combustion Chamber: 65cc
Springs: Comp 918 (1.055" / 1.290" O.D.)
Retainers: 10° Titanium
Camshaft: COMP XER281HR
Intake: .595"-lift / 232° duration @ .050"
Exhaust: .598"-lift / 234° duration @ .050"
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
Clutch: Xedey twin disk
Tune: Brian Herter (mail-order tune)
Flow Data: As measured on a 3.900" bore @ 28" H2O
Lift .200" .300" .400" .450" .500" .550" .600"
Intake 141 200.3 245.1 264.8 282 294.6 300.5
Exhaust 114.6 162.9 196.3 202.6 208.6 213.7 216.9
CLICK HERE... for dyno proven results
Follow-Up Dyno Run (After Head and Cam Install)
New HP: 436.7 (89.9 HP Gain) AT THE WHEELS!
New Torque: 406.6 (43 Ft/Lb of Torque Gain) AT THE WHEELS!
Dyno testing performed at:
BigShot Dyno
6381 Chittenden Rd., BLDG C
Hudson, OH 44236
www.bigshotdyno.com
With enough power to rocket this Vette to a mid eleven second quarter-mile pass while maintaining the drivability to accommodate weekend cruising at 28-32 MPG, Mike's results prove the Edelbrock/Lingenfelter LS1 Heads bolt-on and perform to the extreme. Mike has also shared that these numbers were achieved with a rather rich 11.8:1 air/fuel ratio; we're looking forward to Mike's follow-up once the air/fuel ratio is dialed-in.
Please note: These results are as submitted as testimonial from an Edelbrock customer. Results may vary and Edelbrock makes no guarantees to these performance results
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 22,025
Likes: 192
From: At the beach in little Rhody
Note that Patriot is also coming out with their own head casting/design. I have not been impressed with any of the Edelbrock results that I have seen to date. On the one test back of back of heads, they made the same power as the Darts during the test but the cost was significantly higher.
I told the OP in another thread that I have been happy with my Dart heads. I have one of the first casting sets out the door and they have been problem free and for the cost I picked up 25 hp over the stock casting just bolting them on. I did disassemble them, clean up some of the casting flash with a sand paper roll, modified the valve cover bosses so my Crane rockers and my Crane valve spring tool would fit. I then had them ultrasonically cleaned and re-assembled them carefully shimming all springs to get 138 lbs. on the seat. The car uses less oil than the stock heads with the Darts and my mileage went up as an additional bonus (I have since fixed this with a set of 3.90's though
). However, when I bought them I was actually saving for AFR heads, which I truly wanted. The Darts gave me the opportunity to swap on a set of heads earlier than planned but in the process I assumed I would be giving up some power over the AFR's. I used the cost savings at the time to buy a set of Morel lifters. My plan all along was that I would some day upgrade to the AFR's, which to me were the quintessential head. The Darts have been very good to me but in the spring they will be removed and AFR's installed in their place. Some people think I am nuts pulling a set of heads and installing another set of heads, but I also like messing with the car so the head swap is just all part of the fun.
We are truly fortunate at this point in time to have so many options for heads and cams to choose from, several years ago only re-worked GM castings were available.
I told the OP in another thread that I have been happy with my Dart heads. I have one of the first casting sets out the door and they have been problem free and for the cost I picked up 25 hp over the stock casting just bolting them on. I did disassemble them, clean up some of the casting flash with a sand paper roll, modified the valve cover bosses so my Crane rockers and my Crane valve spring tool would fit. I then had them ultrasonically cleaned and re-assembled them carefully shimming all springs to get 138 lbs. on the seat. The car uses less oil than the stock heads with the Darts and my mileage went up as an additional bonus (I have since fixed this with a set of 3.90's though
). However, when I bought them I was actually saving for AFR heads, which I truly wanted. The Darts gave me the opportunity to swap on a set of heads earlier than planned but in the process I assumed I would be giving up some power over the AFR's. I used the cost savings at the time to buy a set of Morel lifters. My plan all along was that I would some day upgrade to the AFR's, which to me were the quintessential head. The Darts have been very good to me but in the spring they will be removed and AFR's installed in their place. Some people think I am nuts pulling a set of heads and installing another set of heads, but I also like messing with the car so the head swap is just all part of the fun. We are truly fortunate at this point in time to have so many options for heads and cams to choose from, several years ago only re-worked GM castings were available.
Last edited by vettenuts; Nov 26, 2007 at 06:05 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,737
Likes: 2
From: California USA
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 33
From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
IIRC one could look at a set of heads and say, "Brand X has the best flow, so Brand X must be the best."
But heads, matched with the intake manifold and the exhaust system and how the whole engine is tuned gives the best power.
Not pick heads from column A, cam from column B, Intakes from column C and headers from column D. Put it all together and expect to make a gazzlion hp.
But heads, matched with the intake manifold and the exhaust system and how the whole engine is tuned gives the best power.
Not pick heads from column A, cam from column B, Intakes from column C and headers from column D. Put it all together and expect to make a gazzlion hp.