Starting issues after header install...heat???
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
Starting issues after header install...heat???
I am having trouble starting the car after it has been running for a while. Over night or sitting for a couple hours starts fine. I am about 99% sure its the starter getting heat soaked. Can I use regular header wrap to wrap the starter?? I dont want to use anything metallic in fear of grounding out. Im just curious if the header wrap will help hold the heat out...? Thanks
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
To be honest, i already bought the header wrap to do the pipes, but the more I read the more I hear its not the best idea. If I can use what i already bought than Im more inclined to do that. Its not like anyone will be sticking their head into my engine bay to comment.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
How are you having starting problems??? Please be more detailed in exactly what the issues/symptoms are.
Starter issues normally happen due to POOR CONNECTIONS. Make sure all that wiring is in good shape and the connections are clean and tight. Also make sure that the engine battery GROUND wire on the block is clean and tight. Also make absolutely sure that the battery terminal connections are properly torqued to the 11 ft/lbs that there suppose to be.
I had an intermittent NO START issue a while back where you turn the key and the starter would NOT engage or turn over. If you tapped the starter, it would start. Turned out to be the solenoid. Changed it out and its been fine ever since. Best $40 bucks I ever spent on a starter.
That could be your heat issue.
BC
Starter issues normally happen due to POOR CONNECTIONS. Make sure all that wiring is in good shape and the connections are clean and tight. Also make sure that the engine battery GROUND wire on the block is clean and tight. Also make absolutely sure that the battery terminal connections are properly torqued to the 11 ft/lbs that there suppose to be.
I had an intermittent NO START issue a while back where you turn the key and the starter would NOT engage or turn over. If you tapped the starter, it would start. Turned out to be the solenoid. Changed it out and its been fine ever since. Best $40 bucks I ever spent on a starter.
That could be your heat issue.
BC
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 300
From: FL
How are you having starting problems??? Please be more detailed in exactly what the issues/symptoms are.
Starter issues normally happen due to POOR CONNECTIONS. Make sure all that wiring is in good shape and the connections are clean and tight. Also make sure that the engine battery GROUND wire on the block is clean and tight. Also make absolutely sure that the battery terminal connections are properly torqued to the 11 ft/lbs that there suppose to be.
I had an intermittent NO START issue a while back where you turn the key and the starter would NOT engage or turn over. If you tapped the starter, it would start. Turned out to be the solenoid. Changed it out and its been fine ever since. Best $40 bucks I ever spent on a starter.
That could be your heat issue.
BC
Starter issues normally happen due to POOR CONNECTIONS. Make sure all that wiring is in good shape and the connections are clean and tight. Also make sure that the engine battery GROUND wire on the block is clean and tight. Also make absolutely sure that the battery terminal connections are properly torqued to the 11 ft/lbs that there suppose to be.
I had an intermittent NO START issue a while back where you turn the key and the starter would NOT engage or turn over. If you tapped the starter, it would start. Turned out to be the solenoid. Changed it out and its been fine ever since. Best $40 bucks I ever spent on a starter.
That could be your heat issue.
BC
Agreed. I had a bad solenoid as well. I wound up replacing the starter. Now that you have headers though it will be a little tougher to get to.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
The car starts fine when it sits "cools down". The starter engages the engine fine no matter when I try to start it. There is no problem with the starter turning over, the only time it doesn't start is when I drive it, it heats up under the hood and then it will crank for quite sometime before it starts, if it starts at all.... If I drive it for a while and open the hood while it sits it cools down quicker and starts right away as it should. All wires are fine, and the battery is properly torqued. I agree that it is the solenoid as well, however, it only seems to be faulty under high heat. This car has 112K miles on it without a single false start. I replace the headers and increase the heat, magically the starter gets faulty after driving....
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
The NEXT time it happens, before you turn off the ingition, read the DTCs and see if there any DTCs set for the PCM.
If the engine cranks each time, it is most likely NOT the starter or solenoid. Youe missing a voltage or ground in one or more of the circuits. Theres a good chance that it "COULD" be the ignition switch.
The contacts inside the switch get burnt and cause intermittant operation of the various contacts inside the switch. There are several different contacts. There is one for 12 VDC hot in run and start that would cause this issue. This same issue has plagued several other forum members and the switch was the issue. As our C5 age, were seing more and more of these types of failures. Your head light multifunction switch can present the same type of problems with the running lights and headlights.
I have a post that details how to service the ignition switch for FREE. I would give that a shot. It sure wont hurt anything and the repair is really easy.
Here are the links to the headlight and ignition switch repairs:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1951626
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1826359
If it were me,,,I would start with the ignition switch. You will be amazed at how burnt up the contacts can become.
BC
If the engine cranks each time, it is most likely NOT the starter or solenoid. Youe missing a voltage or ground in one or more of the circuits. Theres a good chance that it "COULD" be the ignition switch.
The contacts inside the switch get burnt and cause intermittant operation of the various contacts inside the switch. There are several different contacts. There is one for 12 VDC hot in run and start that would cause this issue. This same issue has plagued several other forum members and the switch was the issue. As our C5 age, were seing more and more of these types of failures. Your head light multifunction switch can present the same type of problems with the running lights and headlights.
I have a post that details how to service the ignition switch for FREE. I would give that a shot. It sure wont hurt anything and the repair is really easy.
Here are the links to the headlight and ignition switch repairs:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1951626
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1826359
If it were me,,,I would start with the ignition switch. You will be amazed at how burnt up the contacts can become.
BC
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
I checked the codes, there were a few l/r door codes in history but the only current were P0118 and P1416 which both make sense because my temp gauge just went bad and I didn't hook up the right side of the AIR system, I just blocked it off on the headers. I reset all codes, drove it around a little and nothing else showed up. I also ran the diagnostics with the car running and didn't pick up anything new.....
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,464
Likes: 2
From: Cedarburg, WI
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 300
From: FL
With Long Tube headers you would at least have to unbolt it from the head so you can get to the starter. You don't necessarily have to pull the header completely out of the engine bay though, you can kinda manuver it to the side once unbolted.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
From: Houston Tx
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
Well I cant get up on the lift til Tuesday morning but Im gonna try wrapping it up and seeing if I can get it to start up after some local driving. This should tell me right away whether or not I am correct. Charlie I got your PM ill let you know how it turns out.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
From: Houston Tx
I just spoke with Mr. Bill Curley, he is very knowledgeable, and I'm having the same issue you are. He asked me what my hot start timing was set at. I didn't know there was such a thing. I'm going this week to have that checked. If you’re having these issues when the car is hot and there is too much timing added on your hot start then you will have a harder start. It's pretty annoying huh.??? Good luck to ya.
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 8,995
Likes: 2
From: Spring Texas
St. Jude Donor '08
This could be your problem. The AIR system takes air from the intake and dumps it into the exhaust on cold starts to "fire" up the catalytic converters. I'm thinking that if you only hooked up one side of the AIR system, it's only working on one bank and confusing the front O2 sensors.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
If that were the case though wouldn't I be having the problems on cold-starts....? Im removing the entire AIR system tomorrow as well as wrapping the starter to see if that will solve my problem. Only existing codes now are P0155 and P0118.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
There are a few things that could cause hard starting. In nitrouscharlie's case, he stated that the starter is having a difficult time turing over the engine "when the engine is up to operating temp".
In that case there are a few things that need to be checked:
The very first thing is proper wiring & connections between the battery and starter. If any of the connections are loose, dirty, burnt, or defective,,,th will heat up during heavy current demands. If the defective connection is any where near a heat source "like headers" ,,,then that connection will drop current at that point and cause the starter to drag. In nitrouscharlie's case, his battery is in the rear! Thats a LOT of wire and EXTRA connections that need to be perfect for proper starter operations.
Timing: If your engine has a large cam and higher compression, the timing that the engine is seeing during the cranking process could be to high causing the engine to try to kick back, thus giving the symptoms of a starter issue.
Bad starter???
In that case there are a few things that need to be checked:
The very first thing is proper wiring & connections between the battery and starter. If any of the connections are loose, dirty, burnt, or defective,,,th will heat up during heavy current demands. If the defective connection is any where near a heat source "like headers" ,,,then that connection will drop current at that point and cause the starter to drag. In nitrouscharlie's case, his battery is in the rear! Thats a LOT of wire and EXTRA connections that need to be perfect for proper starter operations.
Timing: If your engine has a large cam and higher compression, the timing that the engine is seeing during the cranking process could be to high causing the engine to try to kick back, thus giving the symptoms of a starter issue.
Bad starter???
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
Thanks for the help Bill. Im gonna take a few hours tomorrow and go through the troubleshooting steps you have suggested. My car is all stock internals so I dont think I have any timing issues. I could see the possibility of a wire from/to the starter coming loose during the header install so I will check those. Please keep a look out for this thread, if tomorrow doesnt go well Im probably going to have some more questions and some more possibilities to rule out. Thanks
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,526
Likes: 18
From: Santa Fe TX
My starter wire connector (hot wire) was very close to the header and forced the wire to be too close IMO. I bent the connector a bit (eye-bolt type) to move the wire farther away from the header.
No issues, but It was def too close for comfort on initial install.
No issues, but It was def too close for comfort on initial install.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 410
Likes: 1
From: Amherst NH
Found the problem, I actually had a faulty coolant temperature gauge. I finally got a code for it yesterday and it pegged out. I pulled the connection and cleaned it off. Plugged it back in and it has been starting right up and idling better. I also pulled the ignition switch as per Mr. Curlee's instruction and that thing was beat. Cleaned it and replaced it. I am getting much better feel in the key turn and it seems more responsive. Thanks for all the help.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
Ha,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,If it was reading wrong,,,,it would effect the timing and that may have caused it to kick back. Glad that both repairs worked out for you. OH,,,by the way,,,,,
,,,,,Its BILL!
Bill
,,,,,Its BILL! Bill
